[jr314]

Thanks to all who contributed to my previous post (Audiophile Challenge: $3000 setup). Having read some of your comments, I'm curious now about STEREOS. Many have recommended DIY brands (AV123, GR Research, Axiom, etc.). The only other speakers I've demoed in-store are B&Ws (and Klipsch) - are the DIY speakers truly "as good" or comparable to the bigger names? How do the strata minis, for example, perform relative to B&W 704s (for those of you who have demoed several different brands of speakers)?
thanks guys
jr314

[TomS]

You probably need to make yet more distinctions here. 

Several are just direct sales, no reps, such as:
- AV123, Aperion, Axiom - The speakers are designed by various respected designers such as Danny Ritchie (GR), Phil Bamberg (BESL), among others.  They are usually built in a factory in larger lot quantities, sometimes overseas.  Some customization is offered, but basically it's a fixed group of designs.  Most do have a 30-day in home guarantee which takes some of the anxiety out of it.  Odyssey also has a few nice designs like the Lorelei.  It is a favorite here (Symphonic Line design) and provides unbelievable value in the $2-2.5k range.

Some are truly DIY, based on proven designs, and some sell just drivers and crossovers:
- GR-Research (Danny)  Others such as Daygloworange's new venture and Al Wooley at RAW Acoustics build cabinets for these designs and can even finish these out for you.  Al also sells many other designs and does custom work.  Great stuff.
- Madisound
- Parts Express

Others are partial DIY all the way to full custom of anything you want in the most beautiful finishes imaginable:
- RAW, Selah, Salk, etc.  All of these are works of art that usually sound terrific and offer exceptional value.  Literally the sky's the limit though.  These players are  very active on these boards and often personally guide you via phone, email, threads, etc. to the right choice for you.  Can't lose deal.

The other alternatives are those sold through dealers and reps such as B&W, Thiel, Paradigm, etc.  There are certainly many situations where a great dealer can add a lot of value.  Obviously you are paying them something (a margin, though pretty darn small anymore) to guide you in the selection process, which they are entitled to for their knowledge, experience, carrying the inventory and a B&M storefront for you to listen for yourself, etc.

There is plenty of feedback and reviews on many of these choices here on AC.  You can research for yourself, but in general, many buy from the manufacturers represented here, reputable enthusiast dealers (like Response Audio), and resales on Audiogon, AC, or other trading places.

Good luck in the hunt.

Tom

[frustrated]

Ever since I was in high school I wanted to build my own speakers.  I have built several pair and it is very rewarding to hear music from something you made.  I now know that what I really want to do is learn more so I can design my own speakers or at least my own crossovers.  I had no idea how important the crossover was to a speaker.  I guess my feeling now is that each speaker is almost like a snow flake. Unique set of variables that combine to give a certain result.  Everything has a role and anything can make a difference.  The cabinet, the dampening material, the internal wire, the crossover components, the solder, etc.  I find it intriguing.  i also have come to feel that audio is all about synergy.  How things sound together and there are an infinite number of choices.  Keep searching and let your ears be your guide.  Keep the wallet put away until the ears say go.  
Sorry didn't mean to preach a whole sermon.  

[JLM]

Distribution along with "bricks and mortar" retailing and marketing costs typically amount to 75% of MRSP.  (Yes Virginia, you have to advertize in order to get a review in those glossy audio magazines.)  And if you dig into the relatively modest component cost that go into popular retail speakers you'd be further shocked.  So thank the internet spawned cottage industries for allowing you to save hundreds/thousands on speakers.  All the vendors with circles here at AC provide very high content value and are straight shooters.

If cabinet building isn't viable consider panelized kits (pre-cut MDF panels that you glue together, finish, and install drivers/crossovers).  Just layout out plastic sheets, buy strap clamps (nylon straps with "come-a-longs"), and yellow Elmer's woodworkers glue.  Finishing can be done with pickup bed liner coatings, peel-and-stick veneers, laminate with contact cement, etc.  (One of the advantages of DIY is the ability to personalize.)  Some provide the crossovers pre-wired.  And if that level of cabinet building is too much, PartsExpress offers a variety of smaller pre-finished cabinets with removable blank front baffles that you cut your own hole into (extra baffles available, just in case  ).

Stories of shipping horrors involving speakers (because they tend to get large/heavy) abound.  Thats were some of the cost of distribution/retailing are explained.  Obviously it's hard to audition speakers over the net, but before I invested $3000 into a hobby I'd want to spend a little time learning about it and finding out how I fit into it.  So try to attend a meeting of one of the local communities listed below.  With a group the size of AC there's got to be one or more folks within a few hours drive that are willing to invite you in for a listen and learn session.  Nothing compares to face to face discussions and listening in real environments. 

Getting a firm grasp of audio can take months/years.  Learning and keeping in tune with live music (the only true reference IMO), gleening the web, and auditioning equipment takes time.  As the ear/brain has it's limits before aural memory and confusion sets in, you shouldn't try to seriously listen to more than a few setups per day.  Just allowing your musical taste to fully develop can take years (and years  ).

OTOH maybe $3000 isn't that much for you to spend or your not a heady sort of guy.  Then just buy a pair of Mackie HR-824 active 2-way speakers (studio monitors) for $1260 and a Squeeze Box 3 for $300.  Add stands and long(ish) interconnects and you'll be done.  Add a powered sub to taste.

[Wayner]

I have a pair of Cygnet II's from Madisound. They have SEAS drivers in them and sound like the old Dynaco A25's. For $500, what the hell. They were also fun to put together.

W

[WEEZ]

jr314,

First..welcome to AC!

You've received some advice here, and I do not take issue with any of it. Based on the fact that you're going to move into a high-rise condo (mentioned in your 'challenge' thread) with a room size of 15x17; you might do well to consider a speaker with restricted low frequency response for three reasons:

1) A large room is required to support really deep bass;

2) The folks living in the condo below you might not appreciate the china rattling in their cabinets;

3) Cost.

There are many fine 2-way bookshelf/stand-mount speakers available that will do some things better than a floor-stander and won't require a behemoth of an amplifier to be musically satisfying. All of the speaker suppliers here @ AC offer excellent products at fair prices and will be more than willing to guide you. You will be rewarded with superior sound and value for your money.

If you're stuck on the stuff you see in the hi-fi stores; you would do well to listen some brands other than B&W, IMHO. You might be surprised what you hear.

Good luck!

WEEZ

[Mike Dzurko]

Thanks to all who contributed to my previous post (Audiophile Challenge: $3000 setup). Having read some of your comments, I'm curious now about STEREOS. Many have recommended DIY brands (AV123, GR Research, Axiom, etc.). The only other speakers I've demoed in-store are B&Ws (and Klipsch) - are the DIY speakers truly "as good" or comparable to the bigger names? How do the strata minis, for example, perform relative to B&W 704s (for those of you who have demoed several different brands of speakers)?
thanks guys
jr314

jr314:

Just to clarify some terminology: DIY stands for Do It Yourself . . .  in other words you will be some part of the build process. It might be designing your own speakers from scratch or ordering a kit with all the parts and you assemble the crossovers, build the cabinets from scratch, etc. Or it could be a kit that even includes finishes cabinets and you're just "stuffing" them.

Neither AV123 or Axiom are DIY, they sell finished product factory-direct, (some refer to it as ID or Internet Direct), I prefer the term consumer - direct since some of us have been operating this way since WELL before the WWW was a gleam in Al Gore's eye

A couple observations based on experience. My company started out selling DIY - direct 30 years ago. For the last six years we've continued to sell direct, but have changed over to selling completely finished product. FWIW, here's how I see the comparison:

DIY: Can save money IF you are willing to build the cabinets yourself. There are some very good DIY designs out there. The problem is that it is often difficult to audition . . .  it could be a great design but it might not sound like what you're looking for. IF you can find a way to audition before buying and building . . .

B&M (Brick and Mortor): A chance to touch, see, and listen before purchase. Depends greatly on the store, but the sales assistance can range from VERY helpful, to horrible. The listening audition will give you an idea of the comparitive sound, but will not tell you what the products will sound like in your home, in your system. Highly suggest NOT purchasing unless there is the chance to return for a full refund if the product doesn't sound like what you want when you get it home. Generally will be the most expensive because the store has expenses to cover.

Consumer - direct:  My favorite model, (surprise!)  Usually you'll have a 30 day money back guarantee so you can determine the product's qualities for yourself without pressure. Usually you'll have great value because you're bypassing approx. 50% (or greater) markup. IF you take the time to research the various direct brands, you'll start to get an idea of what kinds of sonic qualities they have so you can narrow down your choices. Spend some time emailing or calling the companies, are they helpful? Responsive? Pushy?

Hope this helps, have fun with it, you've already made a great start by asking good questions!

[SET Man]

...are the DIY speakers truly "as good" or comparable to the bigger names? How do the strata minis, for example, perform relative to B&W 704s (for those of you who have demoed several different brands of speakers)?
thanks guys
jr314

Hey!




  Hell yeah! My DIY speakers ain't pretty but they sing beautifully And I wouldn't trade them for those B&W 704 you mentioned. Well, I guess the picture shows how much I like them 

  If you are handy than I do highly recommend that you check out DIY route. Doesn't  have to be everything. For those DIY speaker kits. There are some very interesting kits here on the AC. And there are some interesting one from Madisound also. If you are serious about them you might want to try to find someone here on the AC close to you so you could hear those speaker. It won't be easy as finding someone with B&W speaker but it is possible.

   Anyway, welcome to the AC and good luck. Any more questions? Just let's us know.

Take care,
Buddy

[Mike Dzurko]

Buddy:

I think your speakers are absolutely beautiful compared to many I've seen, ( and some I've built). 

[TomS]

Mike - I knew I'd miss someone when I started listing    Your XL's are unforgettable and I love my pair of Titan II's.  Tom

[SET Man]

Buddy:

I think your speakers are absolutely beautiful compared to many I've seen, ( and some I've built). 

Hey!

    Thanks Mike. But I don't think they look as pretty as your speaker with "piano gloss" finish

    Well, believe it or not they started out as a fun experimental project on Single Driver speaker in August 2002. But ended up replacing my previous main speaker that I've been using for 5 years!

Take care,
Buddy

[Sonny]

I think DIY speakers are the best...
If you find a good proven design and you like what you hear and have the ability and time to build it, why not?  It's going to take some time, effort, frustration (when things are right or not shipped on time, etc) but the end result is a sense of accomplishment, pride and well, feel good feeling!
I built the GeerS eVe II, designed by Edgar Beers and Tony Gee in Holland and love it!  I built it sight and sound unseen or heard, since no one in the U.S. finished them.  So, it was a ton of risk and all my buddies warned against it as total costs, without the labor of love ran up to $2500...Scan Speak drivers, Goertz inductors, solen and Sonicap capacitors, mills resistors and cardas internal wire, along with speakon connectors and all!   But I tell you, when it was done, and in red/black too mind you, I am extremely happy that I build it, and wouldn't know what $2500 could buy me in the used market that would make me happier.  Mind you there are lots o great used speakers out there for ~$2500~ like the VR 2s and VR4 jr., Meadowlarks, Joseph Audio, Zu's, and others, but I just love the way the GeerS eVe sing and blend in...take a look~



Two guys who helped assemble the GeerS eVe....and one of them well, helped with the XO placement...etc...

 aa
 

T

[gooberdude]

I just wanted to add a recent experience I've had with some DIY speaks..i didn't build them though i'm benefitting greatly!     A speaker builder on A'gon sold me a pair of monitors for about $400 which have Morel DMS30S & MW166 drivers...according to Madisound the drivers alone cost about $400.   These little guys appear to be modeled after the small Merlin monitors and are built like little tanks.

the inherent value of these of obvious, and the way they sound is fantastic. blown away would be a huge understatement at this point and i seriously doubt that for the same $ i could obtain similar quality from a known mfgr.

I'm making a move from large floorstanders to monitors and a Hsu sub.   I'm also in a condo and neighbor issues are omni-present, including last night at 3 am when Security called me due to a complaint from below!   The proper stands for these little monsters haven't arrived yet (neither has the sub), and they weigh 1/3rd of my Thiel floorstanders - yet they produce nice bass and imaging that makes me think i'm on a disney land ride....

i think the DIY route and DIY products are such a value that they can't be dismissed or overlooked...  Comparable brand-name speakers with the same driver and x-over components as mine could cost up to $2500.

[kfr01]

DIY speakers provide the best bang for the buck, especially in floor-standers, in my opinion.

Try http://www.diycable.com/ --- I've been -very- happy with their Exodus 2641 speakers and Exodus 61 monitors.

[S Clark]

The GR-Research speaker kits are highly regarded and easily best commercial speakers that retail for 4X to 10X the price.  $350 buys a very highly regarded AV-1 up to a couple of thousand to build the absolutely incredible LS-6. It is hard to beat this quality/price combination.

[SET Man]

...  A speaker builder on A'gon sold me a pair of monitors for about $400 which have Morel DMS30S & MW166 drivers...according to Madisound the drivers alone cost about $400...

Hey!

  Hmmm.... you bought up one of what I consider is the biggest downside of the DIY. The resale value It is hard to sell DIY stuffs also. Well, it is after all it is a no name stuffs 

   Of cause this is totally understandable from buyer point of view. Because buyer will be buying something that is sometime one of a kind and have no way of checking it or get opinion about the item. Even it were a brand name kit it will still loose lots of value, compared to the mass-high end brand name one 

   Luckily for me I don't feel that I would sell my stuffs anytime soon Hey! what else can I replace them with that could surpass them? Definitely not with mass market Hi-end brand name stuffs for sure

Take care,
Buddy

[TONEPUB]

I think SET man really nailed it.

As fun as a lot of DIY projects can be, you better love em, or be able to walk
away should you want to make a change, because it will be hard to convince
someone else to buy your vision.

It also depends on how much time you have on your hands.  I have a good friend
that did his own speakers, but by the time he had spent a hundred hours on the finished
product, he could have probably bought whatever he wanted!

One of my favorite ways to go if you aren't going to buy new is to watch ebay
and audiogon for what you want used.  Often times you can buy that speaker
of your dreams for pennies on the dollar.  Heck, I bought a pair of used Apogee
Calipers from my local dealer on the used rack for $400!!  They sound great.

Lots of ways to go, all are fun....

[Duke]

I'm one of Mike Dzurko's customers from the 80's. 

Nearly all of the sixtysomething designs I built were my own, but I did build at least one of his kit designs. 

Now I'm doing the direct to consumer marketing thing myself.  I finally met Mike in person at RMAF last October, and he told me that something like two dozen of his old DIY customers are now competitors!

Anyway, designing my own speakers was enormously enjoyable.  I can admit now that nearly all of my speakers sucked, but I still had great, great fun designing, building, tweaking, and then planning for the next.  "My best speakers are always my next speakers" was pretty much my motto.

Now if I had been smart, and/or on less of an ego trip, I'd have built kits.  But to me the satisfaction of a design being truly my own won out almost every time.  The one time I bought a kit from Mike, the speakers were for someone else so I wanted to be sure they were well designed.

One thing I learned early on, and still believe to this day:  crossover design is the heart and soul of loudspeaker design.  Oh it's much more fun to select drivers and design boxes and model ultradeep bass extension - but it's the crossover more than anything else that determines whether a pair of speakers sucks or not. 

Now that I've crossed over to the "dark side" and try to build speakers that other people would want to buy, I've invested several thousand dollars in test equipment and computer programs - because just me and my ears can't begin to design a comercially competitive crossover.   

So anyway which is "best" - DIY or name brand?  Well I hate to admit it, but for the same money I probably could have bought better speakers from any of several local dealers than what I was building back in my DIY days.  I certainly could have if I'd gone the direct-to-consumer route that most of the speaker companies at AudioCircle use.  Well here's my synopsis:

1.  If you just want the joy of designing and building speakers that are your own creation, go DIY.  Ideally get some good test equipment and a good computer program, but it's still fun even without going to that expense.  Also, nowadays there are some very good "fullrange" drivers available - no crossover needed!

2.  If saving money is your main goal, then look at kits (where somebody who knows what the heck they're doing has designed the crossover), or buy used speakers.

3.  The direct-to-consumer route is probably the best bang-for-the-buck in new, complete speaker systems; but to make a good choice you need to not only know something about speaker design - you need to know yourself.  That's part of the audio journey - coming to know yourself, what you really like and don't like.

4.  The brick-and-mortar store offers convenience, education, real live customer service (as opposed to over-the-phone or over-the-net), and is the best route in my opinion for people new to audio.  Auditioning is valuable throughout the decision-making process, and frankly is also a heck of a lot of fun.  More and more dealerships are now operating out of people's homes, which is what I do - trying to offer the services of a brick & mortar but on a smaller, less expensive scale. 

Duke

[audiosapiens]

I prefer the DIY speakers because they are simpler. On the other hand, Brand names may have better quality than DIYs.


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