[jr314]

Hello audiocircle members,
It's a pleasure to be joining the ranks of audio experts. New to the audiophile world, I'm looking to all of you for some direction and guidance with helping me create my first-ever audiophile home audio setup. I'll be moving into a new construction high-rise condo unit in April '07. The challenge? To create the best value audiophile quality system for ~$3000. Here are some constraints:

-Listening Area (Living Room) Size: 17.5' x 15'
-Stereo Set-up (two channels only)
-High Quality Digital Audio (lossless) stored on Computer - output to high-end speakers

Having only spent the last month or so weighing my options for playing computer-stored music, I'm still unsure as to the best combination of devices/technology that will result in the highest quality home audio sound, given my budget. Is it better to invest in a USB/Firewire DAC, for example, or a "nice" receiver with a built-in DAC? What are the best speakers to use for this set-up (I'm considering floor standing B&Ws)? Will having the computer in the same room affect contribute to noticeable "noise" in the audio system? As I move forward, I'm sure that some of your opinions and recommendations will help me identify the best value audio system for my new condo. Looking forward to your ideas, thanks!
jr314

[RoadTripper]

- Wayne's (Boulder) analog modded Squeezebox SB3 $700 (total roughly)
- Vinnie's (RWA) Sig 30 $1400
- GR Research AV/3 kit - under $900 - way under actually
   - there are a bunch of speaker kit options that would stay under $900
   - used speakers are also a good route.

This would potentially be a very fine sounding rig.

If the computer contributes too much noise, there are options for dealing with it.

[zybar]

- Wayne's (Boulder) analog modded Squeezebox SB3 $700 (total roughly)
- Vinnie's (RWA) Sig 30 $1400
- GR Research AV/3 kit - under $900 - way under actually
   - there are a bunch of speaker kit options that would stay under $900
   - used speakers are also a good route.

This would potentially be a very fine sounding rig.

If the computer contributes too much noise, there are options for dealing with it.

For speakers I would look at all the new offerings in AV123's "X" series of speakers.  Some are coming with a powered woofer and are silly good at prices that have people scratching their head and saying "How can they offer this and still make money?"

Here is a thread from VA123's forum detailing the new models:

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17771

George

[sts9fan]

wow those speakers sound VERY cool

[tomjtx]

Just to expand on the recommendations I gave you on the Stereophile forum,

I don't think the modded SB would be the way to go. You can buy a stock power supply for the SB and get so much bang for the buck that I don't think you will hear any significant improvement from further modding. I didn't in my 40,000.00 system. The stock Elpac power supply is only 40.00. I later bought a modded Elpac and heard NO difference.
IMHO I think you will get much better sound spending more on your speakers.

There are many audiophiles that think speakers should get the majority of the budget and I agree. Of course, there are others who disagree.

When you want to upgrade your source you will get much more improvement from the addition of a DAC such as the LAvryDAC10 or the Benchmark. These are well established pro audio companies that do far more R&D than an independent modder can do.

A stock SB 300.00 with a Lavry @900.00 brings you to the level of a 2,000.00 Transporter for 1,200.00  IMHO the various modded SB's that I have extensively auditioned and reviewed out there don't come up to that level of sound quality. You will also not have the problem of voided warranties.



In any event if you put more into your speakers and amp you can always decide later to buy a DAC for your SB or modify the SB, but at least you wont have cheated yourself on the speakers or amp.

I want to stress that these are my opinions only. They are based on 30 years as an audiophile and 40 years as a professional musician but there are many experienced people on these forums. Some probably would agree with my opinions and some wouldn't.

Above all, try to listen to anything before you buy. Most manufacturers offer a 30 day trial. I believe Slimevices does on the Squeezebox . Most online retailers offer this.
If you can't get a trial then it may be better to not buy that product.
Only you can please your ears, we can only give you advice which may or may not be good for you.

Have fun, oh, and I still have that bankruptcy attorney's name , you might need it if you catch this audiophile bug

[Carlman]

Which B&W's did you like and what about their sound did you like?

I've heard a lot of B&W's and the only ones in their most recent models that 'got it' for me were the CDM NT1's.  All others sounded like the mids and highs weren't well integrated.

You can probably find a used DK Design integrated for little over a grand nowadays... I'd consider the USB DAC from Scott Nixon from the PC to the amp... That leaves at least 1,k for speakers...  Can't help you there... only your ears will be able to help you.

-C

[boead]

Can’t recommend anything unless you say what kind of music you mostly listen too.

Also, how loud do you listen and what time of day do you listen to mostly or plan on?

That will help determine how much compromise can be made.

Do you like A LOT of bass that is thunderous and felt deep in your chest or do you like a more balanced sound.
Describe the type of high end you like? Bright and lively makes you smile? or grasp your ears in pain?


I listen mostly at night, sometimes very late. I like bass with authority but I don’t like to feel it so much and I don’t like to be startled. I’ve never been one to turn the treble up and I don’t like it too loud, I use too, but then I grew older.

From scratch, I’d start with either the speakers or amp and make sure they have synergy. The source and a preamp or consider an integrated amp. Allow for cables, wire and cords.

If the PC is in the room then anything can work.  I use a Scott Nixon USB Tube DAC and I love it, very, very musical and works flawlessly with any computer.
If the PC is out of the room then a Squeezebox as a client for your PC (server), digital out to a DAC or maybe upgrade to that down the road and just use the Squeezebox as the DAC, I’d get a modified one with upgraded DAC’s and power supply.

$3000 is not enough really.

[Occam]

Jr - Do us and yourself a favor and ask the same question in only ONE Circle. I've posted my comments in your thread in the other circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=35467.msg315299#msg315299

[95bcwh]

I want to stress that these are my opinions only. They are based on 30 years as an audiophile and 40 years as a professional musician but there are many experienced people on these forums. Some probably would agree with my opinions and some wouldn't.

Right on! I have to respectfully disagree with your view that a stock Squeezebox is good enough and you hear "NO improvement" going for even the simplest mod.

I don't have $40,000 system, but the difference I heard is big enough for me not to look back. On the other hand, I have just returned the stock transporter - because to my hear, it has no "soul". I prefers a modified SB3 than a transporter.

You will have to kill me to listen to stock squeezebox... even then, I may decide to die than having my ear suffer.

[zybar]

Just to expand on the recommendations I gave you on the Stereophile forum,

I don't think the modded SB would be the way to go. You can buy a stock power supply for the SB and get so much bang for the buck that I don't think you will hear any significant improvement from further modding. I didn't in my 40,000.00 system. The stock Elpac power supply is only 40.00. I later bought a modded Elpac and heard NO difference.
IMHO I think you will get much better sound spending more on your speakers.

There are many audiophiles that think speakers should get the majority of the budget and I agree. Of course, there are others who disagree.

When you want to upgrade your source you will get much more improvement from the addition of a DAC such as the LAvryDAC10 or the Benchmark. These are well established pro audio companies that do far more R&D than an independent modder can do.

A stock SB 300.00 with a Lavry @900.00 brings you to the level of a 2,000.00 Transporter for 1,200.00  IMHO the various modded SB's that I have extensively auditioned and reviewed out there don't come up to that level of sound quality. You will also not have the problem of voided warranties.



In any event if you put more into your speakers and amp you can always decide later to buy a DAC for your SB or modify the SB, but at least you wont have cheated yourself on the speakers or amp.

I want to stress that these are my opinions only. They are based on 30 years as an audiophile and 40 years as a professional musician but there are many experienced people on these forums. Some probably would agree with my opinions and some wouldn't.

Above all, try to listen to anything before you buy. Most manufacturers offer a 30 day trial. I believe Slimevices does on the Squeezebox . Most online retailers offer this.
If you can't get a trial then it may be better to not buy that product.
Only you can please your ears, we can only give you advice which may or may not be good for you.

Have fun, oh, and I still have that bankruptcy attorney's name , you might need it if you catch this audiophile bug

Tom,

Not trying to invalidate your opinions or thoughts, but since JR314 is new to AC (at least based on the number of posts), I do want to point out that there are many experienced audiophiles with expensive (and not expensive) systems that feel that the Bolder modified SB2 is some of the finest digital out there regardless of the cost.  Again, no issues if you don't feel that way.  We all have our own likes and dislikes and there is no universal truth.     If JR314 does some searches, he can read for himself and have more data points to draw from. 

Also, Wayne warranties his work and offers EXCEPTIONAL customer service.  I can't vouch for Slim Devices, but myself and MANY, MANY others here on AC can attest to Wayne's skills and services.  If anything, that would be a plus in favor of going with him, not a negative.

I do totally agree that one should try and hear gear if at all possible in your own system before making a final purchase.

A very good and musical system can be put together for $3000, don't let anybody try to tell you otherwise.

Have fun JR314 and make sure you enjoy the music.

George

[Daygloworange]

I'll have to second the Squeezebox ($299.00)as a transport. If budget is a concern, then the concensus is that the single largest improvement one can do to the stock SB is change the switching power supply to a linear one such as the Elpac. (roughly $40.00 investment)

Again, consensus wise, the Red Wine Audio Sig 30 is making big noise here on AC as a great sounding amp, and has the added benefit of being battery powered, thus eliminating power conditioning from the equation. lots of guys run the SB directly into their power amps and bypass a preamp.

Lots of speakers to choose from here on AC with your left over budget, either kits, or fully assembled.

Lots of choices for decent quality interconnects and speaker cable here as well.

You could definitely assemble a system capable of some serious quality sound for that budget.

One final tip, once you do put your system...RUN!!!! Or you'll probably become one of us! 

Seriously, your goals are definitely achieveable.

Good luck and have fun.

BTW, welcome to AudioCircle. 

Cheers

[tomjtx]

With regards  to a modded SB, I am tailoring my recommendations to the 3,000.00 budget.
If Jr spends app. 2,700.00 on the speakers and amp with cables, say 1500.00 on speakers, 1,000.00 on an integrated amp, 200.00 on cables and 300.00 an a SB he will have a very good sounding system that will be revealing enough to take advantage of later upgrades he may  want to do to the source.
I personally think he would get more improvement from a DAC eg, Paradisea or for more Lavry. than from modding the SB. But differences of opinion are what make things interesting.

IMO amps and sources are better sounding at budget prices than speakers and that is why I would put more money into speakers.

I think it's exciting that a very good system can be assembled much more cheaply now than in the past.

Regardless I think there is more flexibility if he gets the best speakers he can possibly afford.
The SB is the least expensive unit and will be the easiest to change, add a DAC or modify if Jr becomes as deranged as the rest of us.

I think the most important thing is to listen to anything before you buy. Most gear offers a 30 day trial. If you cant hear it I would recommend not to buy it.
Maybe the best advice any of us can give you is ,in the end, ignore our advice, listen , and let your ears decide

[shep]

Speakers are ever so important. If it were my dosh I would want to wait for those new Sentinals from Paul H. that were just posted. Also there have been some really sweet deals offered here recently. With a little patience you can have a great set up for the budget. Good hunting (that's 50% of the fun!)

[Inscrutable]

I'll second Occam's point about consolidating your question into one or the other of the circles.  They are getting almost identical traffic volume.

[JLM]

For $3000 you can get an all around, very good PC based 2-channel audio system.


I've had three audio epiphanies in my 30+ years in audio:

1.)  Speakers are the most important component in the system;

2.)  3 dimensional imaging (the cornerstone of hi-end audio) that phase coherent speakers can provide (which unfortunately the vast majority of speakers do very poorly);

3.)  The huge/multiple advantages of active speaker designs (one amp per driver).

All else in audio pales in comparison to these foundational truths.   These ideals can be accomplished (at your price range) by using single driver speakers with powered subs (if necessary).


Bob Brines offers plans, panelized kits, unfinished cabinets, or fully completed speakers that provide 30 – 20,000 Hz in room response from floorstanding single driver speakers at very reasonable prices.  Louis at Omega (see circle below) offers a variety of single driver speakers.  His workmanship is exceptional and I fully trust his advice.  The Horns (see circle below) mentioned elsewhere are low floorstanders that can sound very good (but can get “lost” around furnishings and are quite fussy regarding placement to get the best balance between room support of bass and imaging).  Note that The Horns and smaller Omega speakers will probably require adding a powered subwoofer (based on your situation and preferences).  Shop for subs with tight response versus extreme bass.  Budget anywhere from $800 – 2000 for speakers with or without a sub (much less if you can go the DIY route).


Pick up a wireless Squeeze Box for $300.  It provides a remote interface to the PC, digital domain volume control, armchair convenience, and more.  Later you can mod it or just add a quality DAC, or both.  Reportedly the Altman Attraction DAC (search AC) wouldn’t require high quality transports to provide world class sound (but it’s battery powered and cost about $1500 fully loaded).  OTOH other very good sounding less costly and less fussy DACs exist.  With the Squeeze Box use of a pre-amp (unless you want to include FM, vinyl, tape, SACD, other sources) is optional.


Depending on what efficiency of speaker you select will determine how much power you need.  The higher efficiency options above will only need 10 watts per channel or less, so the well received $99 Trends Audio TA-10 could work quite well.  Otherwise I’d look to something like Ric Shultz’s EVS 100 watts/channel digital amp for $800 (which would be plenty of power for any of these designs).  Most of these speaker options would also mate very well with a tube amp, but be aware that tube power amps can produce very flabby (loose/exaggerated) bass.


I’m old school, so don’t get into the tweaky stuff of audio (cabling, racks, component supports, power conditioning, etc.).  But I would recommend paying attention to the room itself (the 2nd most important component of the audio system).  Try to avoid 1:1 or 1:2 room dimensional ratios that cause standing mid/bass waves to become additive (you can partially fill the room to accomplish this) and go as big as possible (to minimize the room effects in general).  High density fiberglass panels (GIK are the cheapest I’ve found) will probably be needed in the corners to clean up the bass.  Imaging is helped by adding absorption/diffusion panels to 1st reflection points on side walls.   Figure about $500 for room treatments to start with.  I’d limit the rest of the tweaky stuff to 10% of your budget.  Go to Blue Jean, Signal, or Element for cabling.  For go the supports, and consider something like Ikea or just maple butcher block cutting boards on the floor for racking the equipment.

[jr314]

I appreciate everyone's comments, I've certainly learned that I have more options than I originally thought. The Squeezebox 3 appears to be one of the most recommended devices on here...is this truly necessary if my computer is in the same room (close proximity) to my stereos? I also understand that the SB can also be connected by direct wire (not wireless) - if so, what is the advantage/disadvantage of having a SB versus a nice DAC?
jr314

[chadh]

I appreciate everyone's comments, I've certainly learned that I have more options than I originally thought. The Squeezebox 3 appears to be one of the most recommended devices on here...is this truly necessary if my computer is in the same room (close proximity) to my stereos? I also understand that the SB can also be connected by direct wire (not wireless) - if so, what is the advantage/disadvantage of having a SB versus a nice DAC?
jr314

The squeezebox has a few things going for it:  but they may or may not be important to you.

First is flexibility in placement.  Even if your PC is in the same room as the stereo, you don't need them to be next to each other if you have the squeezebox.  And what's more, you're not required to have them in the same room.  So if you have placeent fexibility, the squeezebox won't limit you.

But if you decided to use the SB in its wired mode (using an ethernet cable), you could certainly compare it to using a USB DAC:  and in that case, I think the SB still looks attractive.  For $300, I don't know that you can find a USB DAC that is better than the SB's DAC.  The SB frees you from sitting in front of the PC, as it is controlable by remote, with a display on the front of the unit.  And perhaps most importantly, the SB has a track record for being readily modifiable.  Certainly, all sorts of soundcards and USB DACs are modifiable.    But for top of the line mods, these seem to get expensive.  I think the biggest reason the SB has developed such a huge following around here is that people have found modified SBs to offer the best digital sound they've heard for an outlay in the $1500 range.  I don't know if anything else looks that attractive.  Maybe the Altman Attraction DAC?  But going the SB route gives you the option of upgrading slowly, and this might be particularly valuable while you're on a budget.

Chad

[JLM]

jr,

I tried my SB3 both wired and wireless.  Wireless, the signal strength was very low (about 65%) without an extra antenna, so maybe that's why is sounded better to me wired.  Others say I'm nuts.   

Again, SB is very flexible.  The display is adjustable in terms of font size and information displayed.  The menus system is also variable and easy to use (from the remote or PC with the associated software).  No pre-amp needed if ripped CDs and internet streaming is enough for you.  Or you can add a pre-amp later (the digital volume control is way better than most any volume control you'll find on some CD players).  The PC can be beside it, elsewhere in the room, or anywhere within network range.  Can be used stock or modded.  And can be used as part of the transport only with the digital output going to a DAC, or as part of the complete player.  And additional units can be added anyway within network range that can all share any ripped or streaming audio from the same PC at the same time.  Just add powered speakers (or amp and speakers) for each additional location.

Other PC music servers probably match the convenience, but don't offer the quality, reliability, support, or flexibility.  Simple USB connectors require the (potentially noisy) PC to be conveniently located for control.  And then there's the quality/value factor.  Nothing touches the SB, even at twice the price.  CD players are a dying breed as universal players have taken over the marketplace and sources for dedicated CD chips are drying up.  Compared to CD players, SB has no moving parts to wear out, offers the convenience of a mega-changer that can hold your entire library plus internet streaming, and matches sound quality at a $2000 price point.

As you already use a PC for ripping music, the Squeeze Box is a no-brainer.  Bank on it.

[PhilNYC]

Here's another idea:

Dussan DS99 integrated amp ($500)
Aurum Cantus V2M monitors ($1500)
Squeezebox 3 ($299)
Citipulse DAC ($313)

[TONEPUB]

Heads up on the Squeezebox as well....

I want to check out those mods everyone is talking about.  Just got the
Welborne Lab powersupply kit and will try that and am thinking about
just running some "D" rechargeables as well.

The AV123 x-ls speakers are very good in stock form, another speaker
you might consider is a pair of new (about $900) or used (about 5-600)
Vandersteen 1C's.   You might even put your hands on a pair of Used
2C's for around that kind of money and they have more extended bass.

Depending on if you have the room and the right amp, a used pair of
Magnepans might be had in the 5-600 range too!  That will either be
your cup of tea or not at all.  That seems to be the way the panel
speaker thing goes.