Cartridge and Phono Preamp advice for Thorens TD160 MKII

tvad4 · « **on:** 4 Jan 2007, 05:17 pm »

I just purchased a mint Thorens TD160 MKII w/Stanton 681 EEE cartridge. The table has a TP16 II arm.

I'm considering other cartridge and arm options...Denon 103 or Grado Prestige Gold w/ stock arm, or Moth OEM Arm2/Ortofon OM-20 combo...other suggestions?

Also considering Lehmann Black Cube, Grado PH-1 or Jolida JD-9A phono preamps. All around $200-$300 used. Someone has suggested a Graham Slee Era Gold V, but it's somewhat over my budget.

Ideas? Comments?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 07:37 pm »

tvad,

If I remember correctly, the Thorens arm is a bit of a lightweight...and probably not suitable to the Denon 103. The Denon was made at a time 40 years ago when all arms were rather massive by today's standards. The hi output DL-110 and 160 will work better with the Thorens (and save you a bunch of dough in step up devices).

I have heard of many instances where the Rega (Moth) arms mate well with the Denon 103's, tho.

The Grado Gold should mate well....if you can get past the other Grado-specific issues (tendency towards microphony, inner groove distortion, average to poor tracking). The van Alstine Longhorn mod is recommended for it to help it along in all of these areas (see earlier topic on that subject).

Among new cartridges, the Audio Technica AT-440MLa is a screaming value under $100, too. It tracks fantastically, & works well in many arms. Some have nitpicks about this and that in its presentation...but I know of any (newly built) cartridge now availabe at it's price that meets/beats it for overall value.

Wayner, that cheap bastard (

), even owns three of them.

If you keep to hi output cartridges (not the very low output Denon, however, which has such low output that solid state is mandatory - tubes would likely be too noisy), your phono pre choices are wide and varied. I love the lushness that tubes bring vinyl...at the slight expense of impact. The Jolida, if in your price range, sounds tempting.

Good lower cost options to look at would also be the Creek products and the Channel Islands phono pre (and outboard supply when and if you can eventually afford it)

shep · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 07:44 pm »

I second the Audio T. A great C. Needs careful setup and running in (don't they all) probably also benefits from the Longhorn mod. I don't remember but I don't think this arm has adjustment for VTA which means you might not get the most out of the Cart.

robert1325 · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 08:06 pm »

I'm using my Dl103 on the Thorens td321, the headshell is an audio technica to add some weight. Phono-pre is the jolida jd-9 .

Very musical combo !

shep · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 08:18 pm »

If it is of the same vintage and new, it could be interesting. I don't remember what is was right off but around that time AT had other nice ones. The 440 came a bit later I think.

robert1325 · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 08:23 pm »

Forgot to tell , my arm is SME 3009...

WEEZ · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 09:07 pm »

tvad4,

I wouldn't be in any rush to buy a cartridge until you check out the sound and the condition of the Stanton and the Audio Technica..you may be satisfied with one or the other...or maybe both.

As to the Grado(s); I'll repeat myself here, but I've never experienced 'issues' with Grado cartridges when used in a suitable arm and when set-up properly. I've used 'em with Rega arms and 'tables (a common AudioAsylum no-no); on an older AR-XA (another so-called no-no); an older Planar2 Rega with the Lustre arm; a Thorens 160 w/ Infinity Black Widow arm; and now on my SOTA w/ Audioquest (Jelco) arm. My brother uses a Grado on his Thorens 160/TP-16 combo with excellent results. My guess is, that you will need to set the VTF closer to (2) grams in order to eliminate groove distortion and improve tracking...but that's no big deal, really. And yes, the Longhorn mod does improve the Grado's; but other cartridges improve as well if you decide to do it.

Lastly, the Grado PH-1 pnono-amp is an ideal match (not surprisingly) with Grado cartridges. And while the Graham Slee Era Gold V is an excellent phono-amp...within your budget you would do well to consider the Gram Amp 2SE instead. Similar sound to the Grado amp. Both are better sounding than the Black Cube (IMHO). Never heard the Jolida.

best,

WEEZ

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 09:13 pm »

Quote from: robert1325 on 4 Jan 2007, 08:06 pm

I'm using my Dl103 on the Thorens td321, the headshell is an audio technica to add some weight. Phono-pre is the jolida jd-9 .

Very musical combo !

Sounds like a nice set-up, Robert

I had a TD-316 (the original one)...the 321 was the top-of-the-line and sold without tonearm. The SME is always a good choice...does that one have fluid damping?

I didn't know the Jolida handled low output MC's....neat

robert1325 · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 10:23 pm »

No fluid damping, I actually got the TT from my dad ( he upgraded to LP12 with itok and vdhull ONE) ... Don't know much about the technical side but do know it sounds very good

The jolida jd9 has huge gain with LOW MC's ( it's actually better suited for Low to High MC's ) There's three gain settings and I use the middle one with my passive pre integrated amp.

My cartbridge began distorting a couple of weeks ago, think it needs a replacement as it's 20 years old

But it's not my main priority at this time ( Going for the OB route soon)

Sorry for talking offtopic

Robert

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Jan 2007, 02:59 am »

It is my view that to successfully use low output MCs some serious money is needed. The $200-300 price range, even if used, is still not enough. For your arm I'd get fluid damping, if possible. I use a Monolithic PS-1 w/ outboard dual mono power supply and those can be found for $250-350 used.

Cartridge recommendations? A Shure V15III body with a JICO SAS stylus is being regarded very highly in the Vinyl Asylum ( on par with Denon 103 ) and a perfect match for your tonearm. I have a V15III body and am planning to get a JICO SAS. Shure V15III bodies show up all the time in eBay. I also have an Ortofon X5 high output MC and a KAB modded Groovemaster. Don't knock off the Stanton, it is a classic cartridge and initially getting a replacement stylus will free more $$$ to get a better phono stage and phono cabling (like the Zu Cable Xaus, $150 in eBay). The Stanton will also make a fine spare. Shit happens and a decent spare will save the day.

***

Jade East · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Jan 2007, 04:39 am »

The 681eee is a nice piece, I like the sound
its very warm and smooth to my ears. I don't
know what your listening tastes are it may
work perfectly for you. Get a new stylus for
the 681 get it alligned tune up the bounce on
the td 160 damp the inside platter oil up the
bearing and worry about your phone stage.

Jade East · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Jan 2007, 07:57 am »

The arm attached.

shep · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Jan 2007, 08:48 am »

Seriously cool deal! ...Not so tricky. Make a "box" out of that stiff white styrofoam material that appliances are packed in and gets throw away...so that you can turn the TT upside down and have it resting solidly by its frame on that. Don't forget to tape the arm down! Of note, VPI have either done away with their spring suspension or offer an option of replacing the springs with some "new" vibration absorbing pucks.This would be an interesting way to go. You can probably source what they are using elsewhere. What was the Audio T. cart.? The stanton upgrade sounds good. You might have a killer TT. Way to go. The arm might need some loving attention. There are threads about this buried in the Vinyle circle.

Jade East · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Jan 2007, 06:26 pm »

Instead of dynamat I would use rope caulk or a plastic modling clay so you can add a bit and see
how it works in different places.

When you get your table clean it, get it set up and get used to how it sounds play with VTA get
the suspension tuned try different mats . Start your tweaks one by one and see how each changes
the sound of the deck in subtle and not so subtle ways. Take your time and enjoy.

lazydays · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Jan 2007, 09:46 pm »

For the phono stage you might want to take a good look at the Bullari tubed preamp. Hear nothing but good things about them. Cartridge is kinda what you like. Have a Denon D160 and a D103 feeding a Wright WP100 phono stage. Both have a great sound, but actually see almost no difference between the two except for several cases of beer!! I also have a Grado Reference Platnum, and it's a no contest here. The Grado does acoustic jazz better in every way.
Whatever cartridge you go with, replace the cables. I went with a Zu. But there are others out there.
gary

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Jan 2007, 04:13 am »

Quote from: tvad4 on 5 Jan 2007, 03:06 am

Is the Shure V15III a MM cartridge?

I get the impression that I should stay with MM cartridges, and this has been my inclination.

I see that KAB sells replacement styli for the Stanton 681EEE, so that's something to consider.

The Monolithic sound recommendation made me think of CI Audio. Anyone have experience with the Ci Audio VPP1 phono preamp?

I have a KAB modded Technics 1200 and I have tha KAB modded Stanton Groovemaster. I really like the Stanton sound.

The Shure is MM and a fine one indeed, still highly regarded in England and Japan. The Japanese company JICO makes the replacement stylus with their proprietary SAS diamond shape for $97--I want to try it!!!

http://www.export-japan.com/marketing/stylus/sas.php

I suggest you get a good protractor and weight gauge, Turntable Basics sells a nice mirrored one for something like $20. You're already started! From now on how you set up/dial in things is what's most important.

***

shep · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Jan 2007, 12:15 am »

Don't know that AT. Somewhere in Vinyl circle there's a posting of a site that lists every known cartridge!
Tells what vintage, specs and I think prices (maybe in yen) I once had a 160mk 2 and it did have a zink inner platter. Strange. Check on their web site. they probably list out of production stuff with all its variants.

shep · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Jan 2007, 12:17 am »

Forgot. There was also in VC a long bit about replacing the oil in the well with Tufro or something like that name. Automobile supply. Sounded very promising. For sure you should change the oil, if it's still in there. I don't think it was a captive bearing (sealed)...

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Jan 2007, 01:49 am »

Tufoil......and it's the best lubricant, bar none, I've found for belt drivers.

www.tufoil.com

WEEZ · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Jan 2007, 01:55 am »

so, tvad4, how's the Thorens sounding? Hoping you're enjoying the vinyl voyage...

WEEZ!