[KevinW]

Thanks for the clarification.  I am actually in perfect agreement with you regarding frequencies outside the audible spectrum making a huge difference.  I only wish I had a better theoretical explanation as to why this makes such a difference.  Do you have any insight into that?

[Dan Banquer]

I am going to be very simplistic here Kevin, so bare with me. Semiconductor designed for low frequency has real problems when faced with high frequency interference. DC biasing can get altered due to this and the high frequency components can readily cause more noise and even IM distortion. Ground loops in the equipment and the AC line wiring can further exacerbate this problem. Analog Devices in some of their "Analog Dialog" magazines talk about this effect, and the June 1995 AES journal is pretty much dedicated to this subject. As far as I am concerned anyone really serious about this topic in audio should own a copy. And now you might be starting to realize what I said earlier in this thread about Isolation Transformers.

[nathanm]

I think this lofty talk about phenomenon above and beyond what we know of science today is very true, however I don't think that erm, POWER CONDITIONERS fall under this!  That's overkill for what we are talking about here don't you think?  To apply the idea of "there's just some things out there that science cannot explain" to the act of filtering noise off a 60Hz signal is sheer hyperbole.  There's a difference between the enjoyment of buying tons of fun toys and hearing your music improve and hardcore electronics.  To me that is what Dan is referring to when he says there's no such thing as magic.      

But I disagree - there IS such a thing as magic, and it exists inside the human brain.  "Imagineering"!

[Dan Banquer]

Since I have already asked the question, maybe I should elaborate.  The basic premise of an Isolation Transformer is to isolate hot and neutral at some point in the wiring. One fact that seems to escape most people here is that we already have that in most of the equipment we presently use. The transformers that we use in our equipment already isolates hot and neutral from the following circuitry in the power supply. The only difference is that an isolation tranformer is a one to one ratio, and the transformers in our equipment are typically a step down. There is one other thing that can be incorporated into an isolation transformer. They can be designed to act as a low pass filter.
I am pretty convinced at this point that the reason people swear by isolation transformers is that they have ground loops in the wiring and don't even realize it, and that probably includes a few manufacturers, and due to the ground loops they are getting more noise and interference. Remember here Kevin, the isolation transformer will isolate by definition from ground loops and remember that neutral is connected to earth ground back at the box. Add the low pass filtering and now you understand why people get so excited about isolation transformers.
I say; get to the root of the problem and fix the ground loops, design equipment with a well fitlered requlated power supply, install RFI/EMI filters in the equipment, and don't break your back or your wallet on an Isolation Transformer unless you have no other choice.
 It's not Einstein, but the fundamentals apply here.
Are you listening Mr. P. Animal?, here's some theory that really applies.

[Psychicanimal]

It's not Einstein, but the fundamentals apply here.
Are you listening Mr. P. Animal?, here's some theory that really applies.

Theory, that is.  I live in the real world.  Truth is there is noise everywhere and no little EMI filter inside a component is going to take care of it.  Truth is a step down 220/110V isolation transformer works wonders for improving power delivery and noise control.  Truth is equipment are made for specific price points.

[Dan Banquer]

Are you telling me what I stated in the previous post is false? Are you telling me that what I stated doesn't apply? The theory I stated in the previous post definetly applies and is every bit a part of the real world. The general idea is to get to the root of the problem. If you have any constructive ideas on how we should do that please tell us.
I'll give you a hint; it's already being done by a good portion of the rest of electronics.

[KeithR]

We are way off-topic.

Lets get back which line conditioners people have tried, and seem to work well.

[JohnR]

OK, I created another thread in The Lab for anyone who would like to get technical:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=3600

Thanks Keith

[DVV]

I think this lofty talk about phenomenon above and beyond what we know of science today is very true, however I don't think that erm, POWER CONDITIONERS fall under this!  That's overkill for what we are talking about here don't you think?  To apply the idea of "there's just some things out there that science cannot explain" to the act of filtering noise off a 60Hz signal is sheer hyperbole.  There's a difference between the enjoyment of buying tons of fun toys and hearing your music improve and hardc ...

Oh, but they do, Nathan, and how! In more ways than one.

Not to delve too deep, here are a few pointers why I think they do:

1. Our understanding of human hearing is, at best, incomplete - we can still note in tests that things do happen which we cannot scientifically measure and turn into relevant laws. In terms of power filters, this is BOTH in-band (i.e. up to 20 kHz) and out of band (i.e. above 20 kHz) effects;

2. Until recently, it has been assumed (and this dates back to measuring gear, which is by default extremely sensitive) that only out of band noise was the problem. These days, people are beginning to understand that in band noise is just as much of a problem as out of band noise simply because its power factor is far higher than out of band noise. In everyday terms, this means your fridge is delivering far more easily measurable noise into the power grid than your cell phone. Watch that spike when the freezer switches on - like any capacitor start-up device, it has a lovely spike hitting 750 V (here at least, where my line voltage is 220 VAC);

3. Dan did say out of band noise, but I didn't see him write anywhere that a teeny-weenie filter would rid you of the problem - it won't, believe me, or disbelieve me, and waste perfectly good money on such essentially useless or semi-useless devices;

4. There are some traces of understanding how it all happens, and esentially, it boils down to intermodulation effects, which do manage to pass through the usual analog power supply, subdued to be sure, but still quite capable of messing up your sound and/or picture in video systems. But this is still just scratching the surface of the entire matter;

5. Bear in mind that there are many ways of combating the problem. By "many", I don't mean many companies, I mean many mutually radically different approaches to getting rid of this noise, different concepts. That in itself is a sure indication that we are still in the learning stage (personally, I believe this is good, as it will ultimately force people to start asking the right questions), and

6. Because we are still in the low levels of the learning curve, but have seen the problem, it's inevitable that there will be many snake oil peddlers with a few true vendours thrown in for good measure. I think we will all agree that it's easier to spin tales of myth and magic than sit down and start actually working on the roots of the problem. You cannot have a cure until you know the causes and their intertwined relations.

I don't understand why are you people arguing so hard. We all know we cannot precisely measure everything, but it should be equally obvious that without measurement, we can design along the lines of lottery, one in God knows how many million possibilities that we hit the right track.

Dan and I, and I would imagine Hugh as well, have to start somewhere. We do it by applying what knowledge we have and checking up on what we have done by measuring. When we have what we think is electrically well made, then we sit down and tweak it to kingdom come. Thus, nobody is denying that auditioning is of paramount importance, but we can't all just rely on our hearing - remember that everybody hears differently, just as we see differently. The same, but different.

You might as well argue that classical music is the only noise worth being called music, and that only because it's not random.

Cool down, people, we need our wits, not our edgy nerves. Francisco, go to your room, count to 1,000 and come back. Dan, put that design manual down, nobody gets whacked today.

Easy people, let's all try to learn something from each other.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

OK, I created another thread in The Lab for anyone who would like to get technical:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=3600

Thanks Keith

Good move, John. Way to go.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Was it something I said?

Cheers,
DVV

[Dan Banquer]

Oh No Dejan; it's your bad breath and the lack of deodorant.     Besides I've been to busy running around whacking people with manuals.

[BeatleFred]

What do you think of these two products, which one is better,

This one:  http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/gray/

Or this one?:
 
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powerstrip.html



Regards, B/F

[eric the red]

Is it just me or does the Mapleshade power strip look like you could easily DIY about 20 of them for the $195.00 Mapleshade is charging for one? That looks like about a buck's worth of Rat Shack magnet wire covered in cellophane tacked on to a cheap AC plug spliced to a surge protector.

[DVV]

Oh No Dejan; it's your bad breath and the lack of deodorant.     Besides I've been to busy running around whacking people with manuals.

Granted on bad breath, but lack of deodorant? I think I'll report this most unseemly comment to Faberge, as a comment on their green Brut, which I have been using for the last 15 years straight.

As for manuals, don't worry about it, people tend to have revelations after being hit with knowledge as condensed as that.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

What do you think of these two products, which one is better,

This one:  http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/gray/

Or this one?:
 
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powerstrip.html



Regards, B/F

I wouldn't buy either. What I want to see are some figures and graphs, I want to be told how it works and shown the results as a graph or as a table. I also want to be told they guarantee those specifications.

As long as they rely on pretty talk and unknown people swearing it was a revelation, they are of no interest to me. EVERYBODY has that.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Is it just me or does the Mapleshade power strip look like you could easily DIY about 20 of them for the $195.00 Mapleshade is charging for one? That looks like about a buck's worth of Rat Shack magnet wire covered in cellophane tacked on to a cheap AC plug spliced to a surge protector.

I haven't even seen one, much less tried one, but you could well be right. It's not at all unknown for such things to happen.

Power filtering has first been changed to "power conditioning", whatever the hell that means, but it sure looks sexier than "filtering". It also covers up the fact that people do their doctorates on filtering, that people write books on filters, that there are many types of filters (Chebyshev, Butterworth, Smith-Papoulos, etc, etc) each with its pros and cons, and so forth.

Since most markets are price-driven, the general prevailing idea right now seems to be to get it to the market as cheaply as possible. Never mind how it works, the important things are that it's cheap and that people BELIEVE it works well (so-called "percieved value"). Lots of ads will take care of what people think, so money goes into ads rather that R&D effort, manufacturing, etc.

Think - what can you expect from a line filter, expected to pass many amperes of current when loaded, which means many kilowatts of power, if it's packed into a more or less regular power distribution strip? While this may seem a little silly, questioning physical proportions, I assure you it's not - just look at, for example, a Wima 1,000V say 0.47uF capacitor, look at its size, then look at its price. Ask yourself - can they build in at least one of them at their price?

Cheers,
DVV

[KeithR]

Is it just me or does the Mapleshade power strip look like you could easily DIY about 20 of them for the $195.00 Mapleshade is charging for one? That looks like about a buck's worth of Rat Shack magnet wire covered in cellophane tacked on to a cheap AC plug spliced to a surge protector.

lol!  That looks like my computer strip with an odd power cord!
It does claim to laying waste to PS Audios, Hydras, and the like.

As far as my Sound App, i haven't been getting predictable results as of yet.  I also replaced my outlet with a cryo'd Hubbell which is a subtle, yet definitely worth 40 bucks improvement.  I am going to listen to the Sound App all week, and when i move next weekend, see how it works in the new place before i make a final judgement.  I am finding from talking to a lot of audiophiles these things are very system/power system dependant.

[nathanm]

I wouldn't buy either. What I want to see are some figures and graphs, I want to be told how it works and shown the results as a graph or as a table. I also want to be told they guarantee those specifications.

Blasphemer! But how can you possibly know how something sounds by looking at a graph!? Use your magical ears alone! That's all you need, (that and more money than brains.)  Just BUY IT Dejan, read the marketspeak, they wouldn't lie about that stuff!  Don't think, BUY!  Who needs those silly FACTS when you can simply buy thousands of dollars worth of stuff and just listen to it?  What you believe is all that matters, not what IS.  Just look at the swinging watch and concentrate on the sound of my voice...deeper and deeper you fall, deeper and deeper will you reach into your wallet...

[KeithR]

Found an interesting article on www.6moons.com featuring Caelin Gabriel.  Really good reading.