Power Conditioners--discussion of the ins and outs!

satfrat · « **Reply #40 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 05:35 am »

Quote from: Marbles

Anyway if you read it, Chris Says his are balanced....maybe you can discuss it with him.

FYI, all Chris`s conditioners are balanced except for his new flagship conditioner, the BP3.5 which is an isolation transformer using narrow band technology. God I wish I could compare this new conditioner to my maxed out BP2.5. And while I`m at it, I have to wonder why someone like Russ would even participate in this discussion when he won`t even let his ears judge for themselves the benefits of balanced power or isolation transformers. Are we reading or listening here? Not everything needs an explanation for me to be able to enjoy what I hear or an not hearing (ground noise). Regards, Robin

DVV · « **Reply #41 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 06:21 am »

Quote from: JohnR

A reasonable counter, although in that case why are you trying to sell everybody on the DeZorel based on arguments about RF attenuation and something about wire. Nothing to do with how it sounds...

Anyway, the difference was fairly clear to me. The BPT made more music. The Dezorel in contrast made things hard-sounding, almost scratchy (for want of a better word). That's about all I remember, it was certainly enough to convince me where to put any power treatment effort of my own. My other comments are in ...

John, I am not questioning your findings, nor your own conclusions and consequent decisions. All I am saying is that a line filter, exactly like any other electronic or electric components, interacts with your system, all of it. Therefore, it stands to reason to expect different results in different systems.

The DeZorel has been found to be an outstanding filter by many, like in say 30 or so countries in the world. Fine, and while that may be so, it still doesn't guarantee top results, or even good results, with any and all systems.

For example, I have witnessed it tried in Jadis systems twice, and both times the result was appaling, a complete deterioration of the sounbd, which in my view was way below the price point of those items to begin with. Much to their credit, DeZorel people warn of this in their "How to choose filters" document, and mention other poor matches, I don't remember who else. This simply means that they acknowledge the fact that some systems will not sound good with their product.

Thus, your system could have come into that however small category. This is not a comment on your system, or that filter, it simply shows that these things do not go together well, just as a CD player, or a tuner, otherwise good quality products, may not sit well in your system, or mine, or somebody else's.

By the same token, it does not mean that product A is universally better or worse than product B, or product C, etc.

This is why I said it was a matter of taste, also system. I might as well have said the same of any other component.

Cheers,
DVV

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #42 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 12:17 pm »

A reply to John R, and Marbles
Hi John and Marbles;
Balanced or differential mode has a plus input/output, a minus input/output and a ground. In this application the ground is the center tap of the balanced transformer. Power supply transformers that are used in equipment have only two inputs and no center tap to ground in the primary. So they are not balanced by definition.
For more reading on the theory of balanced inputs and outputs try the Jensen Transformer web site. I have found them to be very helpful and I learned a thing or two. The Jensen transformer papers are a direct application to balanced circuitry typically found at line level in audio, however the basic theory still applies to what we are discussing here. I think you will find the papers presented there very informative.
Using a balanced transformer without the power supply transformer being in balanced mode could well help in certain areas. However, I think if you wish to persue better performance in this area then the power supply transformer in the equipment needs to be balanced also. If this is well implemented then the common mode rejection at low frequency will be higher.
Hope this helps.
d.b.

nathanm · « **Reply #43 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 03:59 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

For more reading on the theory of balanced inputs and outputs try the Jensen Transformer web site. I have found them to be very helpful and I learned a thing or two.

Psychicanimal works for Jensen?

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #44 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 04:46 pm »

"Unfortunately, for a lot of this stuff, there's no way to measure it even though our ears can hear differences clear as day."
It's really a shame to read statements like this. The amount of science and engineering that goes into well designed equipment is not insignificant. I believe the main reason why people say things like this is because they don't have the tools or resources to measure, and they don't have the educational background to try and understand. There is no shortage of variables that can happen either. Loudspeaker and room interaction is enough to drive most of us crazy.
As far as burn in is concerned I have posted my comments and observations on other threads. I see no reason to repeat myself at this time.

JLM · « **Reply #45 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 10:12 pm »

Unfortunate that we can't measure...? Yes, so lets admit the limit of our scientific knowledge.

Those companies that have proprietary knowledge, within modern capitalistic systems, have a right to withhold that knowledge in the quest for profits.

What's really unfortunate is what passes as science. The scientific method of observation, hypothesizing, development of theory, and verification of the theory by testing, and finally acceptance as fact, all the while questioning what is accepted as fact has been all but lost. Science is now taught as memorization of fact, to be blindly accepted, with no questioning allowed, no different than in Galileo's day.

We have so much material vestment in what science has provided that we worship where we are at and have forgotten that science is a journey, not a goal.

The human condition includes the need to explain the world around us. Science is the most prevalent system of thought used today. So we have a psychological need to accept that science explains about the world. This need has reduced science and IMO the advancement of science in the past roughly 100 years to simply applications of technology and has stifled further advancement.

I speak as one with a bachelor's degree in science and have been a licensed engineer for over 20 years. It's time to open our eyes, ears, and minds to possibilities not explained by current theories. This thread is just one example.

jeff

JohnR · « **Reply #46 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 03:50 am »

Wow, great post

PhilNYC · « **Reply #47 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 11:59 am »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

"Unfortunately, for a lot of this stuff, there's no way to measure it even though our ears can hear differences clear as day."
It's really a shame to read statements like this. The amount of science and engineering that goes into well designed equipment is not insignificant. I believe the main reason why people say things like this is because they don't have the tools or resources to measure, and they don't have the educational background to try and understand. There is no shortage of variables that can ...

Are you saying that everything you hear in high end audio is measureable?

I certainly don't claim to be a scientific genius, but I did grow up as the son of a Princeton aerospace professor and have an engineering degree from a top-notch school...so I do think I have the educational background to "try and understand". Do I understand everything that happens in high end audio? No. Have I tried to understand? Yes...and what happens is that I hear many explanations of things, some that seem to make sense, and some that seem outright stupid, and very little of it is ever backed up by measurement and scientific method. I want to understand, tho...it would make my life a lot easier being able to explain to my wife a reasonable scientific explanation why I spent so much money putting all of my equipment on big-ass maple cutting boards...

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #48 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 01:07 pm »

To JLM and Phil: I used to think like that. I don't anymore. There is no magic.
d.b.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #49 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 03:42 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

To JLM and Phil: I used to think like that. I don't anymore. There is no magic.
d.b.

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain. And as far as it is certain, they do not refer to reality."

Albert Einstein

Jay S · « **Reply #50 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 04:23 pm »

Science continues to evolve and to be able to explain things that are experienced but which previously were not explainable. Magnetic compasses were once thought to be the work of the devil but sailors knew that compasses - for reasons they could not explain - could help them navigate more safely and reliably to their destinations.

That said, we have an obligation to be as critical as we deem appropriate, as we have worked hard for are money, and their are unscrupulous parties out there that are working very hard out there to sell us poor quality products for outrageous prices.

The problem is... the definition of an appropriate level of "due diligence" / understanding of the science underlying a product varies from person to person... which is why we get these debates between.... gullible fools on one hand and flat-earthers on the other.

I say this with the knowledge that I probably have probably purchased my share of snake oil ... and don't even know that I have this expensive (not valuable!) commodity!

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #51 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 04:27 pm »

The laws and applications of linear design are quite specific and applicable. This kind of misreprentation of an Einstein quote is typical of high end philosophers who know too little about the reality of hardware design. Do you need a list of text's for some background reading?
There is no magic

satfrat · « **Reply #52 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 04:31 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

The laws and applications of linear design are quite specific and applicable. This kind of misreprentation of an Einstein quote is typical of high end philosophers who know too little about the reality of hardware design. Do you need a list of text's for some background reading?
There is no magic

But there is your ears Dan, isn`t THAT magic enough? Regards, Robin

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #53 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 04:38 pm »

I think your confusion here is that you are mistaking music, which is art, and the the technology to reproduce music. which is not art. As an ex formally trained musician I separate the the two very distinctly.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #54 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 05:01 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

I think your confusion here is that you are mistaking music, which is art, and the the technology to reproduce music. which is not art. As an ex formally trained musician I separate the the two very distinctly.

Tell that to Stan Klyne of Klyne Audio Arts...see what he has to say!

KevinW · « **Reply #55 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 05:13 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

The laws and applications of linear design are quite specific and applicable. This kind of misreprentation of an Einstein quote is typical of high end philosophers who know too little about the reality of hardware design. Do you need a list of text's for some background reading?
There is no magic

Dan,
So are you saying that you can always measure how good audio electronics will sound by using instruments? Correct me if I am interpreting your position wrongly, but that is what it appears to me.

However, if you can measure sound quality with instruments aside from your ears, please give us some concrete examples, and not any BS of "go read this book and learn for yourself".

Jay S · « **Reply #56 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 05:18 pm »

Gentlemen,

I will sell you an excellent power conditioner for a mere $35 that will radically and consistently improve your enjoyment of music. It is a bottle of Glenmorangie single malt scotch. After a couple of doubles your system's sound will be incredibly good!!

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #57 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 05:22 pm »

"and not any BS of "go read this book and learn for yourself"
That's not BS. If you are attempting to implement good linear design than those text's become very important. Nothing like a good foundation in the fundamentals. I have talked a lot about this in my FAQ'a on my web site. Should you have a moment please read them and feel free to ask more specific questions should they arise.

http://www.redesignsaudio.com/faqs.html

KevinW · « **Reply #58 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 06:07 pm »

Dan,
You are quite correct that if someone is trying to learn design, an essential component is studying theory. But that wasn't the point of the thread, was it? Please explain your position with regard to the conversation in this thread.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #59 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 06:18 pm »

The real point of this thread is all about theory and practice. As I stated earlier in the thread, linear design has poor high frequency rejection and must be protected from it. I also talked about some of the properties of an Isolation Transformers. Dejan and I talked a bit about AC line filters. The main part of this thread, whether anyone realizes it or not, is about
OUT OF BAND REJECTION!!!! which one of the fundamentals in getting linear design to perform as it should.
Please note that standard audio equipment test does not cover this area. Do you think it should? I do