DIY Active cables?

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jrebman

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DIY Active cables?
« on: 20 Dec 2006, 05:46 pm »
I've been lurking in the lab for a while but this is my first post.

I'm intrigued by the whole phenomenon of active cables, and for no other reason than simply wanting to understand what they're all about and if anybody has ever built any DIY versions -- either ICs., speaker, or power cords.

This is mostly about intellectual curiosity and possible experimentation and not necessarily to debate whether this is a worthwhile thing, or complete BS, etc.  Although any experiences with active cables good or bad, are certainly welcome.

Thanks,

Jim

jrebman

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #1 on: 22 Dec 2006, 02:42 pm »
Nobody?

Have I stumped the brain trust?

-- Jim

Dan Banquer

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #2 on: 22 Dec 2006, 03:09 pm »
I would hazard a guess that no one at this time appears to be interested. From a straight theoretical standpoint, there is little if any to be interested in.
           d.b.

gooberdude

Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #3 on: 22 Dec 2006, 03:31 pm »
dunno about that db,

Mapleshade's active cable systems are all the rage amongst those who can afford them.

I've never heard an active cable, but if there was a relatively easy DIY recipe i'd give a pair a shot.

Dan Banquer

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #4 on: 22 Dec 2006, 03:40 pm »
Well Gooberdude; if anyone has any measurements as to why this is, please be sure to share them with us. After all; this is the Lab section and we do take some interest in measurements.
                d.b.

ctviggen

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #5 on: 22 Dec 2006, 03:57 pm »
What the heck is an "active" cable?

Davey

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #6 on: 22 Dec 2006, 04:14 pm »
What the heck is an "active" cable?

Showing my ignorance....but I was wondering that myself.  :)

Some sort of DC biasing applied to the cable conductors and then capacitor isolated at each end?  I poked around the MapleShade website for a few minutes and I see all kinds of "typical" language to describe their cables, but nothing about "active" cables.  Maybe I missed it.....

Davey.

gooberdude

Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #7 on: 22 Dec 2006, 04:35 pm »
The Omega Mikro line has the active cables, i think they have copper mesh shields attached to a battery.    its the uber hi-end part of the MS line.

i've never heard an active, so i can't give any measurements - i'm sure Dr. Sprey could though!

audioquest has quite a few cables with battery packs attached, one set of IC's cost $10K...what the??
a cable better do my laundry and cook me dinner for that kind of scratch!

on another forum i recall reading posts from guys who tried to emulate AQ's design...

jrebman

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #8 on: 22 Dec 2006, 04:53 pm »

audioquest has quite a few cables with battery packs attached, one set of IC's cost $10K...what the??
a cable better do my laundry and cook me dinner for that kind of scratch!


That's why I'm thinking these are more priced by their results than by what actually goes in them, so that's why I thought it might be fun to look under the hood and see what makes them tick, and if it would be easy enough to come up with something to experiment with.  Something in the spirit of Felicia if you will.

I just enjoy debunking and exposing audio mythology, and if I told the story of my first experience withan Audio Note M1 preamp, you might understand why.

-- Jim

Occam

Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #9 on: 23 Dec 2006, 12:46 am »
Well Gooberdude; if anyone has any measurements as to why this is, please be sure to share them with us. After all; this is the Lab section and we do take some interest in measurements.
                d.b.

Dang Dan... why do you have to harsh everyone's buzz? Gooberdude might not be a technical Poindexter, but his interest is real. I've no idea why (or if) these biased interconnects work, but some folks whose opinions I value seem to think they're the cat's meow. Supposedly, they work on the assumption that a signal that never traverses the return/shield potential has some benefits vis a vis dielectric involvement. Sounds like typical whitepaper scientifical stuff to me  :roll: Nor does it jive with what little I know of instrumentation driven shields.

That being said, for the truly enthusiastic diyer (meaning someone with more enthusiasm than common sense, like myself), if you have the proper components, you could do a very interesting experiment.
If your preamp's output is driven single rail, as is typical of many tube output preamps, or its similarly single rail output solid state like -
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/preamble.html
and it blocks this dc offset with an output capacitor,

AND

Your poweramp has an input capacitor with a voltage rating sufficient to handle the pre capacitor voltage from the preamp, then,

Remove the output capacitor from your preamp, and let the poweramp's input capacitor deal with (block) this offset voltage.
This will -
1.Bias the signal leg of the interconnect so that its voltage swing will never ever cross the voltage of the return/shield, providing whatever benefits associated with dielectric grooviosity.
2. Eliminate coupling capacitors, rather than add them for the intervening biasing, as well as using the preamps inherent biasing ability, rather than add ancillary circuitry.
3. Be a virtual guarantee that if you don't power on your poweramp last, and power off it first, you will blow your poweramp and/or speakers.
4. Even if you reap tremendous subjective improvement with this Byzantine arrangement, you'll not know if it was due to the biasing or the elimination of the preamp's output cap......

If you don't fully follow and understand this, don't even consider doing this. And don't ask me for further explanation. Its function and danger should be obvious to anyone attempting it.

Dangerous and hairshirt. Who could ask for anything more?
Then again, a current Stereophile class A rated $20K solidstate amp will go into oscillation and self destruct if you power it up with no speaker load attached........

EDIT - Actually, point #4 is not true. You could make a 'definative' conclusion by doing the following. With that same single capacitor/channel connection between preamp and amp, listen (double blinded, single blind...) and evaluate. Then simply move that single capacitor to the source end of the interconnect, and the signal passing though the interconnect is not longer biased. Slick.
One could even do this with a SB2/3 running directly into a poweramp. Use the digital volume control and take the output via the analog output, bypassing the output caps. The dac and/or opamps are running single rail, and the outputs, sans cap, never cross ground.
« Last Edit: 23 Dec 2006, 03:15 am by Occam »

mgalusha

Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #10 on: 23 Dec 2006, 02:38 am »
 :rotflmao: - I'm laughing at results 3 and 4. Hell, it might work OK but I shudder at the thought of say 150V on the center pin of an RCA plug.

On a different track, what about a twisted pair with the shield tied to ground via a lowpass filer. Might help if the ground has some inherent noise. Easy enough to try and not as lethal as Paul's proposal, though I do like the possible effect of raising the level of the gene pool. Hmm, I've got some shielded twisted pair cable around here and some old chokes from speakers.

I read Michael Fremer's review of the Tara Labs Zero (talk about expensive) cables in SP the other month and he seemed to find a substantial difference when disconnecting the shield vs feeding it through their little filter box. Not surprised that it was noisier w/o the shield connected, question is would putting a low pass filter on the shield ground make a difference. Perhaps I'll add a switch across the LP filter so I can bypass it.

Dan Banquer

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #11 on: 23 Dec 2006, 04:53 pm »
"On a different track, what about a twisted pair with the shield tied to ground via a lowpass filer. Might help if the ground has some inherent noise."

Oh my; another possible grounding issue? Just exactly how many times do I get to write about this? If these active cables are any benefit at all it will have nothing to do with the voltage on the wire but Isolating the DC ground potential with the caps.
In any case I suggested to Mike awhile back to use his Jensen Isolator to Isolate the Squeezebox from the rest of his system. The Jensen is not just for 60 Hz ground loops as I have demonstrated to many folks in the past. I have inserted the Jensen Isolator between the CD player and the rest of the system on a number of occasions and have been met with reduced noise and the shock of the user as to just how decent their "crappy" Sony player managed to sound. That probably sounds like heresy to most of you but  I'm still convinced that over 50% of consumer audio electronics issues are grounding related.

So Mike; when you get through with your fixing the air leak in the basement give it a try.
 A good holiday to all;
                   d.b.

Steve

Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #12 on: 23 Dec 2006, 06:02 pm »
The voltage seems quite high to me for the purpose intended. The reasoning for this kind of cable design is considered in the article below. It is based on capacitors, but the issue is pertinent with cables.

http://www.audience-av.com/on_capacitor_dielectric_material.htm

Have a great Christmas and/or holidays.

 

Turk

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #13 on: 23 Dec 2006, 08:25 pm »
D.B.,

I am curious if the Jensen Isolator will remove noise, 60Hz residual noise getting into my analog rig, (separate phono preamp).  I have tried various grounding schemes that help some, but being a low noise kind of guy, I want less.

Jerry

Dan Banquer

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #14 on: 23 Dec 2006, 09:11 pm »
Here's the link to the Markertek web page for the unit:
http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?baseItem=JEN%2DCI2RR&cat=INTERFACE&subcat=&prodClass=AUDHUM&mfg=Jensen+Transformers&search=0&off=

If you go the Jensen Transformer web site you can download the pdf on the unit. BTW: Markertek has the best prices for Jensen Transformers. Here's the Jensen link: http://www.jensentransformers.com/ci2rr.html 
The Jensen web site also has a bunch of application notes as well. I plan on getting the video version of this in the near future when I start using my CD ROM drive in my computer as my transport.
             d.b.

Turk

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #15 on: 23 Dec 2006, 09:34 pm »
D.B.

I'll take that as a yes to my question aa

Dan Banquer

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #16 on: 23 Dec 2006, 09:36 pm »
D.B.

I'll take that as a yes to my question aa

Please do, and please keep us informed. If any applications issues come up I may be of some assistance.
             d.b.

Turk

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Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #17 on: 23 Dec 2006, 09:52 pm »
Just ordered one from Markertek.  Will let you know how it works and will let you know if I need any assistance, DB.  Thanks for the recommendation.

Jerry

Occam

Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #18 on: 24 Dec 2006, 01:28 am »
The voltage seems quite high to me for the purpose intended. The reasoning for this kind of cable design is considered in the article below. It is based on capacitors, but the issue is pertinent with cables.
http://www.audience-av.com/on_capacitor_dielectric_material.htm

What voltage are you referring to?

Steve

Re: DIY Active cables?
« Reply #19 on: 24 Dec 2006, 04:31 am »
The voltage seems quite high to me for the purpose intended. The reasoning for this kind of cable design is considered in the article below. It is based on capacitors, but the issue is pertinent with cables.
http://www.audience-av.com/on_capacitor_dielectric_material.htm

What voltage are you referring to?

Hi Occam,

     I was basing my comment on MGs comment.

"Hell, it might work OK but I shudder at the thought of say 150V on the center pin of an RCA plug."


« Last Edit: 24 Dec 2006, 02:08 pm by Steve »