[smccull]

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on some VMPS speakers but need some advice. I heard the RM30s in the Bolder Cable room at RMAF and liked them A LOT!  I especially like what their doing with the CDWGs. Off axis response is very important to me.

While I'd love to have a maxed out pair of RM30s, I don't think I can quite afford it. I've been corresponding with Wayne Waananen via email, and he's been extremely helpful, but I thought I'd reach out to you AC'ers to get your sense on what I should do. Here are the two options I'm considering....

Option 1: A stock pair of RM30C's to be run with a single subwoofer.

Option 2: A maxed out pair of 626Jr's with the OXO stands and megawoofers, to be run with a stereo pair of subs. This seems to be a killer deal, and I could invest more $ into subs and maybe even have some left over to upgrade my front end. But I'm concerned about whether or not I'd be happy with these in my room over the long run. While I mostly listen at low to moderate volume, at times I'll want room filling sound without dynamic compression.

My room is a 16x19 den, vaulted and almost completely open on one side (15' opening) to
the DR/Kitchen. I plan to run them with a Butler TDB 2200 (250W hybrid), so I'll have plenty of juice. The system will get double duty as 2 channel and HT but 2 channel is much, much more important to me. In either configuration, I don't think I'd use the 626Jrs for the center and rears because of size and weight constraints.

I listen to all kinds of music. A lot of jazz, vocals, acoustic and classic rock, new rock, R&B and some classical. Very little opera or organ music. I like a fulland balanced sound that's warm, dynamic (macro and micro) and somewhat detailed, without being analytical, tipped up or in your face with detail. Soundstaging and imaging are important, but not hyper critical. I like a solid image more than a super wide soundstate.

I read these forums a lot and respect everyone's knowledge and experience. Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Steve

[miklorsmith]

I own 626's and have heard RM30's at a friend's house.  I personally think the 626 is a better speaker, as to me the RM30 bass sounds odd.


The 30s will sound bigger because they are, but my 626's fill a large room easily.

[Brian Cheney]

With its pair of beefed up 6.5" WCF woofers and two 6.5" passives, the 30C currently produces bass superior to the old style 30M, particularly with the OXO.

Either the 30C's with a sub or 626 Jrs. with a sub will work well in a 16x19' room. OXO stands for the 626 are also highly recommended.

[Darac]

I think that is too dificult to compare this two models. Both models deserve high-recomendetaions.

[John Casler]

The problem with answering this query, is that you have to "update" each of the speakers to what you are likely to get.

Comparing non-CDWG speakers with CDWG speakers will not help.

First off, the 626R and 626 jr are phenomenal speakers in their price range, and offer performance well beyond their price point.

That said, the RM30C has 3 x the neopanels and 2 x the woofers.

Each will offer incredible performance in the nearfield and at moderate to loud levels.

Both will offer similar FR, and Dispersion/Directivity qualities.  Bass of each will be detailed, and deeper than you would expect.

The RM30's however will far exceed the "stressed" SPL limits of the 626.

The CDWG added to each causes a loss in efficiency, meaning to fill a room, the Neopanel will be driven harder. and stress slightly earlier, than "non-CDWG" models.

Same for the woofers.  Dual 6.5" Megas with dual 6.5" PRs will out perform the ported, 6.5" 626 megawoofs, but only at much higher SPLs. (and bearding the 626's with the OXO pedestal/stand, move that difference "closer")

So for those times when you want to "let loose", the RM30 is the clear choice.

If those only happen a couple times a year, then 626's are the ticket.

Either choice is the "right" choice, but for "room filling power" one might be slightly "more right".

[warnerwh]

I'd get the RM 30's for two reasons. They can sound excellent at higher volume without strain and more importantly you'll most likely end up wishing you would have gotten the much bigger speaker once you live with the 626R's for a while. This is because you'll end up loving that sound and wish you had more of it.  In a room with good acoustics this generation of Vmps speakers is truly spectacular, I say that as a user not a dealer.  You set up a pair of RM 30's well and you'll have world class sound not to be embarrassed by anything made.

I've done this to myself before and have learned it's usually better to go the extra foot.  The RM 30's bass is excellent. Only if you've got a very bad room acoustically would you have any problem in the bass region however this will be true of any speaker in that room.

If you need to save for the RM 30's I would.  In the long run I think you'd be happier. The only way I'd use the 626R's is if I only listened at moderate levels. They will actually play quite loudly but compared to the RM 30's it's a different ball game imo.

There's a saying in the race car world, there's no replacement for displacement, it's true with speakers to a good degree also. You can't change the laws of physics.

[Kishore]

..While I'd love to have a maxed out pair of RM30s, I don't think I can quite afford it. ...
The system will get double duty as 2 channel and HT but 2 channel is much, much more important to me. In either configuration, I don't think I'd use the 626Jrs for the center and rears because of size and weight constraints.
Steve

Simple..If 2 Ch listening is much more than HT and you are an active listerner, my vote is for steriod RM30/sub. I am sure you can find a way to afford it coz after you hear them in your room you will feel richer

Cheers,
Kishore

[Zheeeem]

I went with the RM30Ms for a couple reasons:

My listening room is only about 11x15 and there's not much room for speakers the size of RM30s PLUS a sub. 

I was also getting tired of using speakers that rolled off at 40-50 Hz under normal conditions and then trying to integrate a sub.

I liked the RM30M design - plenty o' drivers on a narrow front, and the sidefiring 10" gives clean full bass only restricted below about 30 Hz.

While fully tricked out RM30s with a sub would have been great, I find that I am immensely satisfied with RM30Ms/BH5/auricaps/CDWGs.

[john1970]

I would save up and definitely get a pair of the RM30s for the same reason that others have mentioned.  My only recommendation is to get the MLS cabinet upgrade.  The MLS cabinets look 10x better than the stock cabinets and they have less speaker resonance due to the use of HDF (instead of MDF) and better bracing.

Good luck,

John

P.S. I own a pair of MLS RM40s.

[woodsyi]

I would get the powered 30s (if there is this option or go to 40s) and use your Butler on just the ribbons.  Ribbons are so much happier not sharing load with woofers.  Add 2 larger subs and you can shake the house with music as well as movie special effects.   

[John Casler]

Not to give you "TOO" many options, but there is also the RM2, which needs no sub and is the step in between the 626 and the RM30.



It is a formidable mixture of qualities and performance.

[smccull]

Holy cow! Lots to ponder here. Thanks for all the valuable input. I can see this is going to be a tough but rewarding choice.

First question is for John: Why do you say the RM2's don't need a sub? Do they reach lower than the RM30s? Do they come fitted with the CDWG? And what about total SPLs? Will they scale like the RM30s?

Second question: What's the difference between the 626R and the 626Jr?

I really, really want the RM30s but to get them the way I want them really stretches the budget. OK, it exceeds the budget by quite a margin. I'd certainly have to hold off on the sub 4-6 months at least.

To clarify my listening habits I'd say I listen at moderate volumes 80-90% of the time. It's only rarely that I really rock out.    The wife usually shuts that down pretty quick. 

[Brian Cheney]

626Jr is identical to the stock 626R with two exceptions: cabinet is Bud Bailey piano black, and woofer is polycone with available $200pr upgrade to the woven carbon fiber Megawoofer. I also have some oak Bud Bailey cabinets and one pair of cherry which are no-charge options on the 626Jr.

The RM 2 has the same characteristics as the 30 with one less panel and a bigger WCF woofer and enclosure.  Its F3 is 24Hz vs 37Hz for the RM 30C and 35Hz for the RM 30M.  Imaging is better on the 30 due to the narrow baffle (8" vs 14.5" on the RM 2).  The sound of the two systems is similar except for bass extension and the aforementioned imaging.  The RM 2 with the FST is $3090pr and the OXO is $450 as on the RM 30.

[Brian Cheney]

A cloth covered CDWG is stock on the RM 2 currently.  We will have piano finish CDWG for the RM2's in about 3 months.

[John Casler]

Holy cow! Lots to ponder here. Thanks for all the valuable input. I can see this is going to be a tough but rewarding choice.

First question is for John: Why do you say the RM2's don't need a sub? Do they reach lower than the RM30s? Do they come fitted with the CDWG? And what about total SPLs? Will they scale like the RM30s?

Second question: What's the difference between the 626R and the 626Jr?

I really, really want the RM30s but to get them the way I want them really stretches the budget. OK, it exceeds the budget by quite a margin. I'd certainly have to hold off on the sub 4-6 months at least.

To clarify my listening habits I'd say I listen at moderate volumes 80-90% of the time. It's only rarely that I really rock out.    The wife usually shuts that down pretty quick. 

I think Big B, said it all.

Many don't realize that there is really a VMPS model that fits their needs, no matter what, they are.

If it were me, I'd get the RM30C, and the sub down the road, all the options are "win/win". (626R, 626jr, RM2, RM30c)

[James Romeyn]

Steve
I have owned several each 626R, RM2, RM30, including current spec 30 w/ every OEM upgrade + a few proprietary of my own.  My professionally treated room is 16x17x8 but is totally symmetrical.  No sub currently though I owned current production True Sub Sig EQ.  Ribbons powered by hybrid 85Wpc Pathos, bass by 380Wpc ATI.

Replies inserted below:

Option 1: A stock pair of RM30C's to be run with a single subwoofer.

Option 2: A maxed out pair of 626Jr's with the OXO stands and megawoofers, to be run with a stereo pair of subs. This seems to be a killer deal, and I could invest more $ into subs and maybe even have some left over to upgrade my front end...at times I'll want room filling sound without dynamic compression.

626R run fullrange will absolutely fail the above SPL requirement in your room.  Later you mention you rock out only 10% of the time.  If rock out = the above description, you won't have to worry about your wife shutting it down, because it won't be happ'n in the first place.  So, if this requirement is mandatory x the 626R off your short list now & make believe they don't exist.  I will bet my 30s on this statement (against their full msrp).  It would help but not solve the problem if the 626R were high-pass x'd at 100 Hz or higher, removing energy from the bass & mid.   

My room is a 16x19 den, vaulted and almost completely open on one side (15' opening)...

That appears to be a huge air volume.  What is the ceiling's max height?  The air volume quantity contraindicates the 626R, esp the open side.

...I plan to run them with a Butler TDB 2200 (250W hybrid), so I'll have plenty of juice...

VMPS, apparently because of the current drawn by the woofers, even the wittel 6.5s, are surprisingly power hungry.  The peak LED lites often on my ATI, which is quite a bruiser.  The ATI powers only the dual 6.5s.  Much has been written on the power draw of even 626Rs.  So don't underestimate your power needs, which unfortunately you appear to have already done.  Esp, again, because of the combined air volume of your two rooms.  (As an aside it is odd that audiophiles often define rooms in two planes, ignoring the third dimension, being the ceiling.)

...Soundstaging and imaging are important, but not hyper critical. I like a solid image more than a super wide soundstate...

Above, combined w/ your budget, points to RM2.  RM2 literally flapped my pant leg several feet away, & shook my tract house plywood floors.  Twice during bass effects I thought an auto accident occurred IFO my house (though I'm a fireman so loss of life & property are part of my very being.)  Their overall bass quality & quantity I believe rival or beat many if not most audiophile subs.  If I have correctly weaned you off the 626R, the above should probably rise to the top of your list.

The other option is to get rm30 w/ every upgrade except maybe the standard caps.  You could upgrade the caps later as budget allows w/ no extra cost except the caps.  Also, I don't really miss a sub that much w/ the current megawoofers, which didn't arrive till about September '06, so don't go by earlier assesments of their performance.  I hear to a bit below 40 Hz.  So you could consider 30s minus subs, leaving more money for TRT caps (very high recommendation), then add sub later.  (If 30s are paired w/ a sub, you could explore biamping the 30s, & high-pass x the 6.5s w/ a simple capacitor-based 1st-order xo at the amp input powering the 6.5s)

Whatever you do, if you don't get the OXO I'll never have you over for dinner again (oh, we've never met, sorry...).  The oxo allows any & all sort of future upgrade w/ the worst possible pain being to resend 2 wittel boxes to the Plant if you don't like to burn your fingers & smell solder fumes yourself.  XO in the speaker means lower audio performance + when the xo upgrade occurs (bet huge money it will) you are stuck poking into the speakers, inhaling fiberglass dust, + the above described glue-gun finger burns, OR packing, loading into a truck or largish SUV, shipping, writing shipping check, etc......Plus the oxo is a huge audible upgrade.

Eventually vmps may stock various oxo boxes, & simply ship replacement oxo's w/ customers returning their original oxo after receiving the replacement, thereby having a 15 minute sum total downtime.  Wouldn't that be nice?

The oxo allows you to order the standard xo then upgrade later w/ very little extra cost & misery.  It's a no brainer.  You must budget for it. 

[smccull]

Jim, thanks so much for your detailed input. I think I'm getting closer.    I think you're right about the 626 not really giving me the SPLs I'm looking for in my room. My ceiling is about 15' high on the front wall (behind the speaks) and lowers to a 9' height behind the seating position. There is a paladium window on the back wall, so as the ceiling lowers it also vaults over the paladium. Hope that makes sense.

So now I'm between the RM2 and the RM30. I really like the idea of the RM2 being full range but I'm concerned about the larger front baffle and footprint. One of the things I really like about the 30s is the narrow baffle. I believe that has a lot to do with the better speakers I've owned and heard. The imaging is much better. Also, how much difference will there be between 2 and 3 ribbons?

I agree with the OXO suggestion and also want to do the SR71. If I do the cap upgrade later, is that something I can do myself. I assume they'll be in the OXO.

One other question, does anyone have trouble integrating subs with the RM30?

I know I have a lot of questions, but I really appreciate everyone's input! 

[warnerwh]

Integrating a sub with the RM 30 is easy because you're crossing over at about 55hz. It's completely seamless and you can never localize the sub even if you try. You will want to run the RM 30's full range so you're not working the sub that hard either.

With my RM 40's I run them full range with a New Original which has been replaced with the 215. The 215 or Larger sub is the way to go. The beauty of Brian's subs is that the transient response is excellent which is a necessity due to the speed of the midrange and treble. I believe he designed a sub for Noel Lee who own's Monster Cable back in the eighties to go with Quad electrostatics. It may have been the first incarnation of the Original sub.

Having the third midrange panel gives you 50% more capability in the midrange. It will be odd to push them too hard though. I've cranked my RM 40's and can tell I'm going to get hearing damage if I leave it up that loud and there's no compression at all, just perfect sound. This level is a measured 105db at my listening position. Your ears will ring after just a few minutes of this level.

Another advantage of having the extra midrange panel is that each one can do less work. This means more linearity at all levels. Being as these panels run from about 280hz to 6,900hz is important being as the entire midrange and part of the treble range is handled here.

If you get the RM 30's with the 10" megawoofers you'll have bass that is plenty for most people. I had been surprised when a friend of mine told me he didn't need the sub I made him buy when he ordered the RM 30's. George likes solid and powerful bass and said he only uses the sub for movies! Me, I like what most people would consider a bit too much bass power so I'd want a sub with the RM 30's.

The RM 30's may be the best buy in high end speakers under 10k. They are certainly neck and neck with any killer bargain speaker in that price range at minimum.

Please feel free to ask all the questions you want. Everybody here is happy to help you

[James Romeyn]

Yes, w/ the oxo, all xo components including the L-pads are located inside the oxo enclosure.  You can place the oxo on the workbench & replace parts there.  It's not fun, it's a bit tedious, but a piece of cake vs. working inside the speaker enclosure.  Hot glue & solder fumes are the words for that day.

My last RM2 experience was a few years ago & minus a ton of upgrades since then, the largest being the CDW w/ passive eq.  But by memory, they image & stage better than maybe most anything except of course the 30s, & better than you'd imagine possible w/ any speaker having a 15" wide baffle.  It often shocked me, & at the time I used to think why bother with the other models.  It's shockingly good.  So it would be best though probably impossible (unfortunately) to A-B the two models w/ the same options. 

Again, IMO ideal is to biamp the 30s & use a high-pass xo at the input of the amp powering the 6.5s.  Using a high-pass in this way will avoid adding any distotion to the ribbon array.  It will also minimize stress on the 6.5s & allow you to minimize a mode (normally ceiling, though in this case you might not have one) by eq'ing a hole at a modal point between the 30s & sub.

Man you got a huge space to fill.  Get a calculator & figure out the cu volume.  It's gonna be big.

VMPS' room is smaller, about 31x14x8.  Once auditioned 626R & Smaller Sub then switched to RM2.  VMPS' farfield listening seat favored the 2s in every way by my recall.  Maybe at closer distance the 626R's might have some advantage but certainly not dynamics & stage.     

[Brian Cheney]

I have been getting enthusiastic emails from a reviewer for one of the major e-mags to whom I sent a pair of stock RM 30C and a powered Larger Sub.  He reports this combo fills his high-ceiling 17x30' room well and the single Sub shakes the walls.

I think your best choice is the 30C with the OXO, add the sub later when budget permits.  The OXO makes upgrades easy at a later date, and stock cabinets (lite and dark oak, mls satin black) keep the price under $4k delivered.