SqueezeBox ver2 vs ver3

Daygloworange · « **Reply #20 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 03:36 pm »

My SB3 with analog mods and Elpac PS was shipped last week from Wayne, I'm really anxious to get it set up and burned in.

I heard MarkC's open baffles, he mentioned that you were the one that he got a lot of feedback from. They were really cool to listen too and play with. I'd like to listen to them in a more controlled environment. That is a pretty neat sound coming from an 8" driver.

Cheers

TomS · « **Reply #21 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 03:57 pm »

I have two SB3’s and now a Bolder SB2. The decision to invest in upgrading the SB2 vs. SB3 was based on the extra room inside the case. To install equivalent coupling caps for the SB3 would require them to be external, with requisite longer leads, opening them up to stray noise pickup. A new bigger case was also an option, but at that point, it might make more sense to look toward the Transporter as a platform (but that’s a whole different story for another thread).

My SB2 has the full Bolder platinum cap analog and digital mods, two gold bybees on analog, one silver on digital out, Ultimate MK II PS with four bybees, Summit DC cable, and a MAC Delta power cord (for now). Since mine is still breaking in, I haven’t done really serious listening or compared it to a lot of alternative setups yet at length.

While the SB2 was at Wayne’s, I used a stock SB3, Ultimate MK II PS, Nitro DC cable, Bolder digital cable out to Wadia 861SE/GNSC digital in, then analog out to a preamp, as well as just the SB3 analog out. The SB3 analog out mode was not very listenable to me in my system. There was a lot of grunge as well as a thinness and edge to the upper mids. The upper bass, where lots of music foundations start, was not well articulated either. Overall, it was just not a very smooth sound that I could live with long term. Going digital out through the Wadia DAC cleared a lot of this up, though especially the bass and stridency in the mids.

Since the modded SB2 came back, I’ve been using it analog out straight to the amps or through Marbles’ Bent NOH for switching. Though it is still going through the break in marathon required by the Black Gates and coupling caps, I’ve had no desire at all to go back to the SB2/3 digital out/Wadia DAC combo.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #22 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 04:54 pm »

My comments regarding the sound of the modded SB2 and SB3 are when they are powered with the Ultimate PS MKII.

There is a HUGE improvement in the sound of any modded SB when powered by the Ultimate PS MKII. It is why I stopped building other PS. The ELPAC is a very good upgrade over the stock switcher. The modded ELPAC refines the sound even more. Neither is close to what the Ultimate does to the sound.

Many people think that digital is all just 1s and 0s and the power supply just can't matter. Well, where do the 1s and 0s come from? They are actually square waves being generated by the various chips. The chips get their power from the power supply. If there is noise and grundge in the PS it will be replicated in the digital signal. How fast the PS can generate the leading edge of the signal, keep it at full voltage without overshoot or ringing, and the same with the trailing edge. It ALL comes down to how good the PS is.

The PS needs to be able to isolate the noise from the AC side away from the regulator. It also needs to isolate the noise generated by the chips switching state from the regulator so it doesn't enter the regulator's feed back loop. That is some of what the Ultimate PS does that the ELPAC and stock PS cannot do. I am not aware of any other power supply that can do what the Ultimate does.

The Ultimate is very expensive, but it is the best thing I have found to date for bringing the SB up to SOTA sound.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #23 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 05:59 pm »

Just out of curiousity, does the Ultimate PS need any break in? Does it sound different over a period of time and then settle down?

Cheers

Wayne1 · « **Reply #24 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 06:17 pm »

In my experience, everything needs break-in

The Ultimate PS has a Silver Plated IEC, Fuse Holder, Silver Plated Fuse, all Solid Silver wiring, etc. Silver in AC circuits can take up to a month of constant use to "settle down".

The caps used all need time to form. They are not as "bad" as Black Gates, but I would say they should need about 200-300 hours to fully form. The AC parts will take the longest in the Ultimate PS MKII, based on direct observation.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #25 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 06:42 pm »

Wayne,

Is there anybody you know of in my neck of the woods that has the Ultimate PS? ( I'm sure you know what I'm thinking.

)

Cheers

Wayne1 · « **Reply #26 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 07:03 pm »

mcgsxr has the closest thing to the "Ultimate" in the Toronto area.

Mark's PS is an update to the Basic Rev 1. I have moved forward a few revisions since he got his.

I would be very willing and able to update Mark's to very close to Ultimate MK II. All it takes is money

Daygloworange · « **Reply #27 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 07:12 pm »

Quote

I would be very willing and able to update Mark's to very close to Ultimate MK II. All it takes is money

Batter up!

Cheers

mcgsxr · « **Reply #28 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 07:53 pm »

Oh great, it moves to public harassment to make my sound better!

I don't have the $ boys, but if Daygloworange wants to get off his wallet...

I would be happy to lend you my PS, so you can get a taste of what I have, and you can lend me your PS etc.

When the time comes,

Daygloworange · « **Reply #29 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 08:29 pm »

Quote

I don't have the $ boys, but if Daygloworange wants to get off his wallet...

Swing and a miss!

Yeah, we can exchange stuff, I'd like to hear the difference. Cool.

Cheers

NewBuyer · « **Reply #30 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 09:28 pm »

Quote from: Wayne1 on 5 Dec 2006, 04:54 pm

...Many people think that digital is all just 1s and 0s and the power supply just can't matter. Well, where do the 1s and 0s come from? They are actually square waves being generated by the various chips. The chips get their power from the power supply. If there is noise and grundge in the PS it will be replicated in the digital signal. How fast the PS can generate the leading edge of the signal, keep it at full voltage without overshoot or ringing, and the same with the trailing edge. It ALL comes down to how good the PS is.

The PS needs to be able to isolate the noise from the AC side away from the regulator. It also needs to isolate the noise generated by the chips switching state from the regulator so it doesn't enter the regulator's feed back loop. That is some of what the Ultimate PS does that the ELPAC and stock PS cannot do. I am not aware of any other power supply that can do what the Ultimate does.

The Ultimate is very expensive, but it is the best thing I have found to date for bringing the SB up to SOTA sound.

Thanks for this information Wayne!

I've been curious about all this for a little while now.

I assume the digital phenomenon you describe would have to apply to ADC as well as DAC. So it would be especially important when recording/mastering the music to the digital CD format in the first place - otherwise no amount of playback enhancement can get rid of what's already "in the recording", i.e. the garbage-in-garbage-out principle. I wonder if all serious recording engineers must then be using the equivalent of the Ultimate PS MKII, with all of their digital recording gear?

Also wondering, since the internal audio circuits in the SB will still get their power from the internal switching regulators inside the SB - regardless of whatever external AC power source is used - the end result of all this must still be far less from ideal - is that correct?

Wayne1 · « **Reply #31 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 09:53 pm »

There is one internal switching power supply inside the SB2. It is needed for the display.

I make changes to the internal power supply design on the SB2 and 3 so the DAC does not receive power from the switcher, as it does stock. There is no analog circuit used in the modded SB, aside from the DAC chip.

I do not know anything about the "PRO" sound or recording side of things. From talking with Glenn of GIK, it does not seem that most studios really care about getting the "best" sound. They are looking for a particular sound that will playback well on an iPod.

The "Best" recordings are usually very small labels that care a lot about the quality. They use very minimalistic techniques. The offerings by MapleShade, and some of the IsoMike experiments of Ray Kimber come to mind.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #32 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 10:19 pm »

Quote

I do not know anything about the "PRO" sound or recording side of things. From talking with Glenn of GIK, it does not seem that most studios really care about getting the "best" sound. They are looking for a particular sound that will playback well on an iPod.

They do not obsess about things the same way audiophiles do. It's also client driven (right or wrong). If clients think they need to be using this mixer or that software or this microphone plugged into that doo-dad, then that's what the studio is going to buy.

Durability is paramount. Downtime is very expensive. The music business is just that. Business.

It is also full of irony. They will have the very best recorder that money can buy and then record an amp with a torn speaker through a radio shack mic, 'cause it's got a "sound" .

Cheers

NewBuyer · « **Reply #33 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 10:52 pm »

Thanks for the information, this is good to know. I too have been considering the SB3 mods. My worry now though, from Wayne's posts and others, is that the mods may not really be greatly worthwhile unless an Ultimate PS MKII is also used - which on top of the mod costs, would add $750 plus the $100 (or $200) additional for the specialty Nitro/Summit power cord requirement.

Perhaps just buying a Transporter and being done with it, may be more practical - what do you all think?

That is also very interesting information about the recording studios. I hadn't realized it was like that, on that side of things. Kinda dulls the good-ole audiophile feeling, you know?

mcgsxr · « **Reply #34 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 11:27 pm »

I am far from disappointed with the sound of the modded Rev1 PS etc.

They come up used now and again.

Perhaps after Daygloworange and I swap PS's, we can report on the difference between the unit he has, and the one I have - I think the one he has is still around, and can be modded.

Not sure about the Transporter, never heard one.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #35 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 11:29 pm »

Quote from: NewBuyer on 5 Dec 2006, 10:52 pm

That is also very interesting information about the recording studios. I hadn't realized it was like that, on that side of things. Kinda dulls the good-ole audiophile feeling, you know?

You might want to take a look at the gearslutz forum http://www.gearslutz.com/board/

A lot of heavy hitters in the recording studio end of things hang out there.

The mods I do, make a difference in the sound of the SB. The difference is able to be heard more distinctly with a better power supply.

The analog mods with Sonicap Platinums and a modded ELPAC will sound better than a lot of multi-kilobuck transport/DAC combos.

I, personally, do not feel the sound of the Transporter in it's stock form is all that great. But that is another topic on another circle

Daygloworange · « **Reply #36 on:** 5 Dec 2006, 11:41 pm »

Quote

The analog mods with Sonicap Platinums and a modded ELPAC will sound better than a lot of multi-kilobuck transport/DAC combos.

Those are the mods I have done on my SB3, as well as the modded Elpac. It's on it's way here, but it'll be about a month or so before It'll get put in my system. I'm going to let it run 24/7 at a buddy's house till it settles down.

I'll let y'all know what I think.

Quote

That is also very interesting information about the recording studios. I hadn't realized it was like that, on that side of things. Kinda dulls the good-ole audiophile feeling, you know?

I think a lot of people would be a little disheartened after assembling their carefully chosen gear as to the behind the scenes world of recording. The ironies, fudging, shortcuts, fakery, agendas and so forth.

Cheers

bpape · « **Reply #37 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 01:45 am »

Wayne.

Not so much the 'ipod' as 'sound decent on pretty much everything' crowd in the studio world.

Bryan

NewBuyer · « **Reply #38 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 07:03 am »

Well now I'm really getting interested in the SB3 mods.

I guess my only remaining concern is the polarity reversal that remains on the SB3 after the mod is completed (resulting from the op-amp removal). I could change speaker-cable polarity, but then polarity would be reversed for all of my other sources. I really don't want to have to change the speaker cables at each listen of the SB3 (inconvenient and I'm too lazy

).

Wayne, is it even possible, in any way whatsoever, to mod the SB3 with correct polarity remaining?

DSK · « **Reply #39 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 01:04 pm »

Quote from: NewBuyer on 6 Dec 2006, 07:03 am

Wayne, is it even possible, in any way whatsoever, to mod the SB3 with correct polarity remaining?

Just use V15 of the SlimServer software, it reverses polarity too. So, you end up with correct polarity and those who have A/B'd V15 with later versions seem to suggest that V15 still sounds the best anyway.