Room relations

gja · « **on:** 1 Jul 2003, 12:24 pm »

I was wondering what de Capo positioning was used by list members in relation to their respective room dimensions. What positions yield best imaging, the disapearing speaker, bass, center fill, etc? What about toe in? What works best for you?

Mine are now about 3' from the short back wall and 2.5 from the long side walls, I listen about 8' from the front edge. My room is 17x11x8'. No toe in. While I've only had them for less than a week, I can only make them disapear on a few select recordings. From what I've read, there should be room for improvement. I'm also working on my cabling....but that's another post.

Thanks

Andy

brucegel · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Jul 2003, 03:09 pm »

Let the speaker "work the room" and sit farther away.If their is a couch against your back wall then sit there.Try to get as much spread as possible without sacrificing center image fill(use a good vocal for testing).You are not getting disappearing acts because of your room width and your sitting too close and using the speakers like a high end studio monitor.Let the speaker breathe and you will be amazed.Good luck! P.S...Don't think about cables until you dial in the sweet spot for your speakers.

Stuartbranson · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Jul 2003, 07:36 am »

Hi Andy,

I agree with Brucegel about giving them space since you have it. My room is a very challenging 12.5' x 9.5' x 7' (lxwxh) My DC's are about 2' from the short wall, 1.5" from the side long wall putting them about 6' apart. I seem to keep pushing my chair back though I can really only get to about 9' away. Lotsa room treatment and I found a slight toe-in was preferable. I know they don't suggest it but I found the focus a bit better and kinda helped with the disappearing act these speakers are so good at. Maybe it's just my room though. Can't hurt to try unless your stands are filled with lead. BTW are they new or used? If you've had them only a week and they're new I'd imagine a couple months more will help matters.

Good luck,

Stuart

PS: We're moving in Aug. so I can finally get out of that tiny room...

gja · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Jul 2003, 11:04 am »

Great Advise Guys!

Last night I moved my deCapos as far apart as my room would permit (about 18" from the side walls) and forward from the back wall to about 1/3rd out into the room, with a very slight toe-in. I pushed my chair as far back as I could.....and.....and.........the deCapos disapeared! The soundstage extended back beyond the physical limits of my room and side ways to about the actual side wall locations.

Curious thing is that my bass response also improved. Another interesting thing is that this speaker location is not too far off from where I found my 5' x2.5' Acoustat 3's to work best! I should have known better.

BTW, these are used deCapos - so breakin in not an issue.

Thanks for the advise!

Andy

Stuartbranson · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Jul 2003, 12:18 pm »

Good to hear it. (pun intended)
Just thinking,... The fact that the speakers are now only 1.5' from your side walls probably justifies the toe-in to compensate for the "soundstage" wrecking first reflections. Just a thought.

Enjoy.

brucegel · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Jul 2003, 01:24 am »

Great to hear things have improved.If wife allows try a little absorption at the first reflection point of the side walls.Beam a little flashlight from the center line at a 45 degree angle to hit the point or as many points as you like.Gives you a wonderful sense of where the sound waves are going.P.S. Stick a small pillow behind your head and see what that does.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Jul 2003, 06:20 am »

I am considering getting the MM De Capo I's, but my room is (15X13X12) (WXLXH). Will a room this size work? I need to have the speakers at least 7" apart because they need to fit b/t my racks/TV. It sounds like I may not have a room that can optimize the performance of the MM De Capo I's, but I'm unsure. Currently, I use Sound Dynamics 300ti's, which sound wonderful, though not quite as refined as when I've heard the MM De Capo I's. I just want the sound I heard at the dealer and don't want to buy them if my room can't allow them to "breathe." HELP!!! I'd love this speaker, but only IF they will sound correct in my room

Stuartbranson · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Jul 2003, 06:41 am »

My deCapos sound great in my room of 12x9x7. Wide soundstage, lots of depth and detail too. Maybe they would sound better in a bigger room but I don't feel like there's much need for improvement now so....
Obviously, if you can, try them out. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Jul 2003, 03:41 pm »

Stuart-

Could you tell me exactly how the MM De Capo I's are set up in your room? How far do you listen from them?

My Sound Dynamics 300ti's are set up along the long wall about 7 feet apart- 2.5 feet from the side walls and 2.6 out from the rear wall. I listen about 8.6 feet away from them and they sound great. If I were to put the MM De Capo I's in place of the 300ti's, do you think this would work? Or will I be sitting too close to the speaker to take in their magic?

Thanks for anyone responding! I listened to the MM De Capo I's at the HE show and was blown away. I want to own them, but only if they can work in my room. They seem to need a lot of room to work properly, which is strange for what is really a pretty small speaker.

Stuartbranson · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Jul 2003, 12:57 am »

My speakers are about 6' apart(center to center) 25" from the rear wall and about 16" from the side walls and about 5 to 10 degree toe-in. I have foam at the first reflection and homemade bass traps in the corners behind the speakers. (you can see pictures under my same username on audiogon)
Admittedly, at higher volumes, I think I would rather a larger room (and I am soon moving so...) but I still love everything about these speakers. Whether they're better than what you have I, of course, cannot say. I guess there's no way to be sure unless you try them out first but so many can't be wrong... or can they...?
Hope your decision, either way, helps you find that sound you're listening for.

Stuart

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Jul 2003, 03:52 pm »

OK, I think I'm going to get the Reference 3a. Thanks for everyone's input regarding my room. I found a pair of MM De Capo I's with Osiris stands for $1700. I think that's a godd deal.

Michael

Stuartbranson · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Jul 2003, 05:42 pm »

That's a fantastic deal!

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Jul 2003, 11:24 pm »

Cool!!! I'll post my impressions once I hook them up. FYI- they will be run by VTL MB 125's.

Michael

brucegel · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Jul 2003, 03:47 pm »

Sounds like a nice system.I run my decapo i's with the vtl tt25's and have great dynamics but curious if you notice any brightness on top with 125's.The bigger vtl's purportedly sound a little less sweet on top but this is anecdotal from reviews.Let us know what you think.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Jul 2003, 09:25 pm »

I have not received the Reference 3a's yet, so I can't comment about the VTL's and brightness with these speakers yet. The VTL MB 125's have never sounded bright with any speaker I have coupled them with. My father has a VTL MB 450 hooked up to Magnepan 3.6's and it does sound slightly brighter in tetrode mode than the smaller VTL's. I think the "brighter" VTL sound has partially to do with the use of 6550 tubes for the "big" amps (VTL ST 150 and above). However, I have heard the MB-1250 Wotan's at the CES show and would be hard pressed to call them bright. They sounded liquid and had ridiculous authority. My MB 125's use EL 34 tubes, which have a very warm, tubey sound. I chose the MB 125 over the ST 150 because I like the sound of EL 34's over 6550's.
My father's MB 450 in triode sounds amazing. That is the only mode he ever uses (I guess 200 tube watts is enough to run Maggies just fine).

My plan is to run the Reference 3a's with the MB 125's set to triode (55 watts). I'm sure it will sound nice, but I'll post my impressions soon.

Welcome me to the CLUB!!!!

Michael

cyounkman · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Jul 2003, 09:16 pm »

Welcome, indeed. If you want my guess, the MB-125's will be a great match with the De Capos. I was considering the ST-150 as well; although it's interesting to hear that it uses 6550's instead of EL34's.

What's the rest of your system?

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 05:31 am »

Ok, the rest of my system running the MM De Capo I's is:

Conrad Johnson PV 12
VTL MB 125
Rega Planar 25
Rotel Tuner
Parasound CDP 2000 belt drive CD Player
Monster HTS 3500
JPS Labs Digital AC
MIT 750 + II spkr cable
MIT 330 + II interconnect
MIT Terminator 5 interconnect
Bright Stars
Vibrapods
BDR CONES
Nitty Gritty record machine

and, of course,

THE REFERENCE 3A MM DE CAPO I'S!!!!!

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Jul 2003, 03:36 pm »

Ok, I've done some listening with the De Capo I's in my system, which is described above.

First thing I notice is a lot more resolution than I am used to. My vinyl lp's suddenly have a lot more surface noise than I thought! It's a good thing once the music gets started, but it is a little disconcerting hearing extra surface noise on your LPs.

It took me some time to get the adequate center fill, but I've settled on 6 feet apart- 2.4 feet out from the rear wall, 2.5 feet from the side walls, and 9.6 feet from the listening position. I noticed an incredible midrange, really extended highs, and better imaging than my Sound Dynamics 300tis. However, the 300tis certainly have more visceral weight in the bass, though not as tuneful as the MM De Capo I's. The Reference 3a's sound FABULOUS with my VTL MB 125s run in triode- no zingy highs here.

They are more refined and all around better than my SD 300ti's, but I'm surprised how close the 300ti's are considering the price difference -$800 w/stands vs. $3000 w/stands. I'd say the 300ti's do 75-80% of what the Reference 3a's do overall. I guess all the praise TAS heaped on the cheap 300ti's was well deserved.

cyounkman · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Jul 2003, 04:24 pm »

Glad you're happy with the results... The DC's are revealing in the extreme, which is sometimes a good thing and sometimes not. Your system seems pretty well balanced IMHO.

If you're thinking of doing any more tweaking, cable-swapping or component-switching, the DC's will provide a clear window on any changes. Don't start, though, unless you've got a lot of time and money on your hands...

Have you experimented with triode vs. tetrode mode? I'm wondering if the bass response would be any different in tetrode.

Any idea where I can find more info on the SD line? (always looking for cheap musical speakers for musician friends...)

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Jul 2003, 06:21 pm »

Ok, I put my Sound Dynamics 300ti's back in to compare. Here are the differences.

1) A lot more resolution with the Reference 3A. I hear details that I miss on the SD. Far more transparent, more robust midrange, and more extended, detailed highs.
2) The bass is definitely deeper and better suited to different types of music on the SD. The De Capo's bass is tighter, but lacks the impact of the SD.
3) The Reference 3a's image better, but the SD's aren't that far behind. I was surprised at this finding. The stage and placement was almost identical on the 300ti's. It's just the MM De Capo I make the images larger and more palpable. A small but important difference.
4) They both capture the gestalt of the music. I think that is why the SD's are so highly regarded as speakers. It just plays tunes well. The MM De Capo I's also do this and with the added resolution make me feel more connected to the music.

I will try playing the 3a's in tetrode and report back.

Sound Dynamics is owned by API, a Canadian company, but changed into Athena Techologies a couple years ago. They made many budget speakers, but the "classic" ones and those lauded by the Absolute Sound are the Sound Dynamics 300ti and Sound Dynamics RTS 3. I own both and it has been hard for me to upgrade until now because both capture the essence of music so well.

Your only luck finding these are on the used market. Here is the steal of the day. If you need a speaker for a second system, here you go.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?spkrmoni&1060621028

Here is an OK review of 300ti's. The most informative reviews are from TAS:
http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Reviews/Sound-Dynamics/