[broodwich]

Ah, the dreaded first post. N00B alert. I'm moving up from the AVS forums to here... This is the thread I started over on the AVS forums. I'm thinking about building myself some speakers and I'm intrigued by these AV-Os. I think the AV-Os would be perfect for my living room. My only real option is to place some direct speakers on stands behind my couch. Something like the AV-RS would not work in my room either because of the very open floorplan of my house. I had been spending some time browsing the GR Research site as you can see from my other thread on AVS. At first I dismissed the AV-Os but when I spent some time reading the threads here about them, I had to revisit the GR site. They might be a good solution for me. I just don't know how they would work for my main L+Rs as well. Of course I would also want a center channel that would work well with this setup. I couldn't use an AV-O as center channel of course. Here's my entertainment center in case you didn't look at my post over on AVS yet.



I'm new to this so any help you can offer would be appreciated. If I used the AV-Os as my front L+R pair they would have to sit on either end of my custom monster entertainment center. My HSU sub that you see there would stay but I could move it from that spot and place it closer to my listening position at the other end of that love seat you can see in the picture. Budget is a consideration too but I don't want to cut corners if it means that I'm going to be making big sacrifices in sound quality.

I like the MTM design of the AV-2s but my receiver isn't that great so I don't know about it's ability to drive the AV-2s at a 4 ohm load.

[phoenix_rising]

I would look at three AV3's for the LRC configuration given your entertainment unit, I am sure Danny will chime in but I think a ported design may compromise the sound quality given their close placement to the wall. They are also a 6/8 ohm load so your receiver should have no trouble with them either. Then use two AVO's for the rears or 4 if it is a 7.1 configuration.

[pipster]

What a great looking entertainment center!

Will be interested to hear what Danny sayes about the A/V-3s across the front as I currently have the box built and about to order one for my center while undecided about the L/R (probably A/V-1 on stands due to my future plans - wall to fireplace to wall split enterainment center )- rule out the A/V-3 and A/V-O floorstanders.  A/V-2 and A/V-3s atr possibilities.  But that is the subject of a future post as I am not going to hijack you thread.

The A/V-0 on the front may create a problem that hopefully Danny will adress.  Specifically, how will the entertainment center 'wall' impact the omnidirectional sound radiation?  If adverse, how about the similar size A/V-3 with the transmission line reversed for forward porting?  True, less base - but you do have a sub.  Also, with the sub, may not need to reverse the transmission line, retaining rear porting with less than optimal placement.

A/V-3s replacing the Klipsh would be appropriate with their accoustic design and decent 6-8 ohm load.  While I saw your post on AVS prior to this I didn't post there.  My frustration with the lack of DIY MTM designs above 4 ohms keeps bringing me back to GR Research for a matched set.  Note, the A/V-3s will sound significantly different than the Klisph.  Personally, I have found horn tweeters, while very precise are also very forward and 'in your face.'

A suggestion to think on in the future - particurally when replacing receiver.  I don't know what cooling you have - ventilation and fan exhaust to the rear?  You may want to replace the glass front.  Go into Best Buy (Magnolia Center)and look at their Salamander units.  Instead of glass, notice the perferated aluminum sheets - that can be painted to match the stain of your entertainment center.  When I design/build my center, that is what I will use front (and probably rear) for great ventilation and looks while retaining remote control functions.  Just a suggestions.

[Danny Richie]

First things first. Regardless of what you do with the speakers, treat the room. You could put the best speakers in the world in there and get bad results real easily.

You may need to get creative and design some room treatments that will look like it is supposed to be there and not take away from the beauty of that room.

I'd pick out some nice fabric for drapes to at least trim out the windows with and use the same material for a tube trap in the right corner.

A well built tube trap will tighten up the bass from that sub, smooth it out, and make it much less boomy and one note-ish.

You could also run the curtain on the window to the right all the way to the back wall and do a diagonal across the corner. You can then hide some foam wedges in the corner behind the curtain. That would work well and be easy to build.

Have the wife pick out a nice throw rug or two for the floor too if you don't already have one.

If the room is still a bit lively then you can make a nice collogue of absorbing panels mounted to the ceiling that is covered in white fabric. This is very effective in quieting down a noisy room and can be made to look very decorative.

Then onto speakers. A/V-3's as left and right mains and an A/V-3S center would be one consideration. If you treat the rear corner to the right I'd probably leave the transmission line opening to the rear. Otherwise moving it to the front (flip flopping the design) would be an option. These are all 8 ohms (easy to drive) and will give you a high output capability.

The A/V-O is another good option for the left and right mains. I am using a pair of them right now for left and right mains. I love those speakers. They can sound much bigger than they really are. Sensitivity is lower so they will not play as loud or handle as much power, but they do sound nice. If you go this route you will have to pull them out so that the back edge of the enclosure is equal to or past the front edge of the entertainment center. You can't trap them with the sides of the entertainment system or you'll get a response that is messed up by the reflections. This option is also less expensive and really easy to build.

For a center you could go with a single A/V-1 or still use an A/V-3S.

Surrounds might also be A/V-O's or even A/V-1RS's if you have space for them on the rear or near rear side walls.

[broodwich]

Thanks for your replies. I see what your saying about the AV-3 in the front left and right positions. That would work for me. It's a bit more expensive than I had planned. I so then the idea would be to use two AV-3 floor standers in the front left and right, one AV-3s for the center channel, and perhaps two AV-Os in the back left and right.

Right now I am running a Pioneer VSX-1015x receiver those 3 Klipsch speakers you see and the HSU VTF-3 MK 2 Sub. I want to bring the crossover frequency down a bit on the sub. I like the sub but I prefer to really just have the real sub bass tones coming from the sub. I'm sure anything I get is going to be better than the little Klipsch speakers I'm using now.

By the way, those Klipsch speakers are a few years old and they are just something that I inherited from my father. I don't really like they way they sound and that's why I'm looking for something different. So I'm not a Klipsch fan at all. I recently auditioned some bigger Klipsch speakers at a local retail store and I didn't like the sound of those either.

Thanks for the comment on the entertainment center. The design was mine (well, I stole several of the design elements from some very expensive entertainment centers I found in stores) the build was my neighbor. He will be happy to hear the positive comments that I have been receiving about it. I'm very happy with the end result. Those three glass front doors were originally going to be filled with speaker grill material or something like the Salamander units. We decided to go with glass later. The back of those three cabinets in the center are wide open in the back. So far it hasn't been a problem but I know I may need to do something different if I go to a different amp at some point.

[broodwich]

Here is a little floorplan I threw together a while back. Sorry it's not complete, but this will give you a better idea of the layout.



A big piece of carpet is part of the plan. It will go over the floor in the whole area between the couches and the entertainment center. It's just going to be a piece of wall-to-wall carpet with the edges bound. This should help cut down on the hard surfaces at least a little bit. My wife already has curtains in the works but I don't know how effective they will be in knocking down the sound. They will help a little but they are not going to be as heavy as they should be to knock down sound.

Here is a shot of the staircase area, I know it's not an optimal shot of the area but you'll get the idea. So in the floorplan where it says open to entry and open to staircase. This shot was taken near the left front corner of the entertainment center looking towards the back of the room, away from the TV.

[Blaine_M]

Well, if you do the AV/3 floor standing speakers won't the left speaker be hanging out in the walk-way?  Can your entertainment unit be slid to the right any to avoid that?  I've got a pair of AV/3 speakers and I highly recomend them.  I also built an AV/3s for the center.  The AV/3 goes faily low and will integrate well with your sub, a little better than the AV/3S would.  What crossover options does your Pioneer have?  I wish my Marantz had a 40-60hz option that I could use for music...but it doesn't, just 80hz. I often switch to the 'source direct' mode Marantz has when I'm listening to music, that eliminates the sub.  The AV/3 sounds great by itself when listinging to most types of music. 

[texasphile]

I have a pair of A/V 3s and have heard most, if not all, of the current speakers in the GR-Research line-up.  I think that the A/V Os and the O3 are going to be great speakers for Home Theater.  I believe that Danny said that you ought to move the boxes in front of the entertainment center.  The omni design took a bit of getting used to; they don't "look" like they should sound the way they do.  The good thing about either of those designs is that I would doubt that you might need a center channel speaker.  The sound is not beamed directly at you like a regular front-firing speaker would do, except in the area that the tweeter covers.  Danny could weigh in on whether a center channel would be a necessity or not.  I can stand pretty much anywhere in a room with either design and hear all of the sound just fine.  The sound doesn't start to drop off-axis like regular speakers do.  Of the two, I personally prefer the O3s due mainly to the BG Neo 3 tweeter.   The A/V Os are smaller and less deep so they might fit your room better.  Captain Humble heard the O3s in his house last weekend so you might want to e-mail him to hear his opinion.

Good luck,

Chris

[Blaine_M]

A lot of people argue about the use of a center channel in home theater...but I believe you should use one.  It anchors the sound to the screen.  There was another thread recently where Danny also recomended for home theater usage to go with a center channel.  Here's the link where the center is discussed...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=33988.msg301924#msg301924

[broodwich]

So I have been spending some time looking around at different speaker designs and I have been traveling around listening to different speakers as well. I have been thinking a bit more about this project and thinking about Danny's suggestion on the AV-1RS for surrounds. I think they might work out nicely in my space and they will make the wife happy.

What is a better match for the front L + R and Center with the AV-1RS? I'm thinking about the AV-1s or the AV-2s at this point instead of the AV-3s or AV-Os. I guess either would work. Can anyone elaborate on the differences between the AV-1s and the AV-2s. I see that the AV-2s have a greater sensitivity. The both seem to have the same fall off -3db at 55Hz.

Also what is the possibility of using the AV-1s or AV-2s bookshelf speakers in my "bookshelf" entertainment center?

Thanks again.

[Blaine_M]

I'm sure Danny will chime in, but the AV/2 is I believe a 4 ohm speaker, where the AV/1 is an 8 ohm speaker, not sure what you have for amplification, but it will take more to drive the AV/2 than the AV/1 or the AV/3.  Those speakers are rear ported as well, I do not think it would be a good idea to put them in the bookshelf, to do that you probably want to go with the sealed AV/3s speaker across the front three.  I also think any of the OB speakers and the other AV speakers will go fine with the AV/1rs surrounds, I think they have the same woofers. 

[broodwich]

Thanks Blaine. That's a good point about the ohm load on the AV-2s.

[Danny Richie]

What Blaine said was spot on.

[broodwich]

So basically the AV-3S is the best design if I want to use the speakers in my Entertainment Center because they are sealed enclosures. Also because their impedance only drops to about 6 ohms at the lowest point they will be easier for my receiver to drive, correct?

Is there a frequency response curve image that shows the AV-3S response below 200hz?

[Danny Richie]

Is there a frequency response curve image that shows the AV-3S response below 200hz?

Without a large sized anechoic chamber taking measurements below 200Hz are not accurate. My old Anechoic chamber we 22 feet long and allowed me to get accurate measurements down to about 100Hz or so.

Still it really doesn't tell you what it will do in a room.

The A/V-3S will be -3db down in the low 80's with no room gain.

[broodwich]

I see.

I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing that with me. I learned something new.

[Blaine_M]

I would think for a home theater and most music listening applications the AV/3s paired with a good sub would be a good option for you with the crossover set to 80hz.  I think most if not all DVD's are recorded so the .1 channel gets everything below 80hz and everything else goes to the other speakers. 

If you are doing mostly movie watching in an area that big, you'll want a big sub.  Take at look at the SVS lineup, they have some subs that can fill an area like that with no problem. 

[broodwich]

Blaine,

I have the HSU VTF-3 subwoofer.

[Blaine_M]

Nice sub, if you ever find yourself wanting more check out the dual subs SVS has.