[PaulFolbrecht]

"Is this guy nuts?", you're saying.  "Is he completely out of his mind?  Of course you need a TOP-NOTCH center speaker in any good HT setup!  WFT is wrong with this clown?!"

You've got some nerve.

Or, maybe you aren't saying those things.  But I thought I'd make a post on why I'm going to ignore the conventional wisdom and build a (good) HT setup with no center channel.

The usual objection is that the front speakers create a solid center image only when you're directly in-between.  I've found this not to be the case, quite.  Good speakers have a wider sweet spot then that.  I've experimented recently with telling my processor there's no center ch so that it routes all center signal to the mains, and it works just wonderfully.  Certainly, far off-axis viewing would suffer, but there will be no such thing in the theater room I plan to build. 

So, then, why have the center at all?  It drives me nuts how virtually all 5.1 and 7.1 encoding throws virtually EVERYTHING at the center, even music!  This is stupid.  Even if the center channel is of the same quality as the fronts - which is probably rare - two speakers able to create stereo imaging are going to do a better job with music (I'm talking about music within movies.)

Part of the motivation is that I do want the system to sound great with music - within movies and dedicated concert videos too.  Since excellent speakers can create a very good center image even somewhat off axis, I see no reason at all for any center speaker.  This saves me over $1000 easily.  It saves me the negative of having a speaker behind the projector screen, all of which degrade sonics to some extent, and also I happen to believe that fully high-end audio oriented mains are going to sound better on almost anything than almost any center channel speaker.

Thoughts?  Admittedly, HT is not really my forte, and I may be missing something.

Paul

[rumatt]

Funny..   I'm watching the James Taylor tribute and have my center turned off because it sounds better.   

[zybar]

I have run my HT for years with no center channel and never found that it detracts from the experience.

However, that was in a HT with a front pj and screen, not with a huge black box (with speakers) in between my L/R speakers.

I suggest you simply try things without a center channel and see how you like it.  If you feel like you are missing something, you can always add it later.

George

[JohninCR]

Center channels are a scam thought up to make everyone need to buy new
speakers.  With a large screen the center puts that content too low or too
high.  Line arrays are ideal for HT, because the prime listening area is magnitudes
larger.  They're also the best way to match the sound size to the image size.
If you're talking about a TV, which I don't consider HT, you only need a center if
your mains are spread wide.

I'm with you, forget the center channel.

[PaulFolbrecht]

George,

My *current* setup DOES have the "huge black box" (50" LCos) but the dedicated theater room I plan will not (projector).

I'm not really mulling this - I've decided - just want to see what others think. 

[zybar]

George,

My *current* setup DOES have the "huge black box" (50" LCos) but the dedicated theater room I plan will not (projector).

I'm not really mulling this - I've decided - just want to see what others think. 

Gotcha!

George

[jqp]

I had only L and R for a couple of years. The sound was fine, didn't feel that I was missing anything because of the phantom center effect.

Now I have a center over my 40" Tube, and an Outlaw preamp/processor for the HT side of things. Same L and R, and the surrounds. The center does not sound too high. DTS sounds great with the multiple speakers as well as the other sound protocols.

[Rob Babcock]

Well, I prefer a center, but I'll concede not everyone really needs one.  One major reason for adding the center is improved dynamic output and volume; you can reroute that info but it's not the same as more speakers playing it.  But if you have very dynamic mains and/or a smaller room, that may not be necessary.  The one thing I will say is that having a poor center channel is much worse than doing without.

To those who eschew a center, one question- have you tried using 3 identical speakers or voice matched standmounters in place of the typical horizontally arrayed center?

[shokunin]

I've gone back and forth a number of times, phantom center or real center.  Both can be good and it's all about preferences.  In the end (my family and I) prefer a center channel.  There are some combing and other sonic effects that will occur when you try to split an often mono-signal (center) into a stereo L/R.   Some have debated that using a phantom center will decrease dynamic range as most processors will normalize the signal of the fronts.  There was a largish thread on AVS that dealt with the technical processing functions that happen when a phantom center is selected and how it gets split back into the stereo mains.

As Rob mentioned a poorly matched center would be worse than phantom center. 

[JohninCR]

To those who eschew a center, one question- have you tried using 3 identical speakers or voice matched standmounters in place of the typical horizontally arrayed center?

I've tried only identical speakers, and none of that pointless MTM laying on its side for a center.  I'm unwilling to accept the sonic or video compromise of so-called acoustically transparent screens.    I've always run a large screen right at the verge of being too large, and I could always localize the center channel speaker.  Now the same thing happens to me at most cinemas.  The only setups I've found acceptable are OB's and OB line arrays.  For me OB is a foregone conclusion for natural clear dialogue, and OB arrays give the best match of image and sound size along with recreating the venue. Arrays do have the compromises of occasional exaggeration in the size of the audio image, and distraction when the sound was obviously not created at the same location as the video.  The affect of distance on SPL for arrays is half that of point source speakers, which is why they have a much much larger prime listening area.  Even quite a bit off axis, the closer speaker doesn't swamp the sound of the other, making a center useless.  Of course, you can't use arrays with anything other than a large screen, because the big sound will dwarf the video image, but we're talking about HT anyway, not watching a TV.

[ctviggen]

With my particular processor (Proceed AVP), I've performed tests with and without a center.   I have a RPTV setup with a 57 inch 16x9 TV and an entire rack of equipment between my R/L speakers.  I prefer having the center for action flicks and music videos.  For the rest of the stuff (which is actually on 90% of time in my house), the version without a center isn't bad.  These tests were performed sitting in the sweet spot.  I did not try to perform them while moving to outside the sweetspot. 

[fajimr]

bob

you might do a search over on the ellis audio circle- I know the same thing has been discussed over there too.  I'll be setting up a home theater soon with my 2 channel system.  jim

[PaulFolbrecht]

I've gone back and forth a number of times, phantom center or real center.  Both can be good and it's all about preferences.  In the end (my family and I) prefer a center channel.  There are some combing and other sonic effects that will occur when you try to split an often mono-signal (center) into a stereo L/R.   Some have debated that using a phantom center will decrease dynamic range as most processors will normalize the signal of the fronts.  There was a largish thread on AVS that dealt with the technical processing functions that happen when a phantom center is selected and how it gets split back into the stereo mains.

Any chance you could provide a link to that thread?  Thanks!

[drcruz]

My humble system has 5 identical SpeakerCraft in-ceiling speakers and I ran the center channel for a couple of years. I did an experiment of running my HT Receiver in full bypass and used the DAC on my DVD player, I felt the sound was much better w/ the exception of one area - the dialog coming out of the center channel was entirely too low when compared to the other sound effects during the movie I was watching. I verified the calibration of the system using a Radio Shack SPL meter and still the dialog coming from the center seemed to be recorded WAY TO LOW. I went into the DVD audio menu and selected "Center Off" and voila the dialog became more balanced w/ the rest of the sound effects during the movie.

I haven't gone back (and probably won't go back) to using my center.

[hometheaterdoc]

Some over generalizations.

I'm a big 2.0 or 2.1 home theater fan.  In a lot of setups, its really all you need and all the room will really support.  That sounds blasphemous from a guy with a business named The Home Theater Doctor.  But if customers have X amount of dollars for their system, it's better to get as good a setup as they can for 2.0/2.1 than total crap for 5 channels. 

Also, a lot of rooms, either because they are really narrow or there limited number of listeners/viewers and they sit together, (or they are using a flat panel and the speakers are mounted close to the screen) can get away with only having a left and right speaker.

The problem comes in when a) the room (and seating) is pretty wide or b) the main speakers are relatively widely spaced and the listening/viewing position is more nearfield/close.  That means that even listeners/viewers that are sitting next to one another are off axis. 

If a set of speakers is placed for audio and not video (speakers out into the room with a projector and screen setup) this can cause some disconnect in the illusion of audio coming from the screen.  You really need the center channel to anchor the audio for folks off axis.

If you're in the center sweet spot, it can go either way.  It just depends on how good your processor is at blending the center channel back into the left and right.

If you are goign to use a crappy center with good L/R speakers, it might be worth it to stick with just L/R regardless.... the sound would be better, but it still won't image as well as having that center anchor the vocals.

General rule of thumb:  If you center is good, it's better to have the center than not.  If you are in the sweet spot and a) don't have a center that's up to snuff, b) have a center that can't be positioned correctly because you've incorrectly done your video setup, c) have a processor that doesn't detrimentally kill the sound blending the center channel back into the L/R mix, and/or d) are completely unconcerned about folks that are off axis,  then going without a center makes perfect sense and is highly recommended.

[George]

With a large screen the center puts that content too low or too
high.

I must respectfully disagree.

[JohninCR]

With a large screen the center puts that content too low or too
high.

I must respectfully disagree.

George,

By "large screen" I mean a screen you measure in feet, not a TV.  With my screen the
center point of a center channel has to be a minimum of almost 4ft above or below
the center of my screen, which ends up quite easy to localize for me.

[George]

Whoops! [emily latella]Never mind.[/emily latella]

[ctviggen]

If a set of speakers is placed for audio and not video (speakers out into the room with a projector and screen setup) this can cause some disconnect in the illusion of audio coming from the screen.  You really need the center channel to anchor the audio for folks off axis.

I agree with this.  I have my VMPS RM40s set for music, not movies.  They crossover in front of the sweetspot.  What this means is that if you sit to the side, you don't get the full effect (perhaps this will change once I put on the wave guides).  That's why I think a center channel is useful in my situation.

What do people think of acoustically transparent projection screens?  I'm thinking of buying one of these, but to get an electronic screen with acoustic transparency is stunningly expensive. 

[Russtafarian]

I've been running no center channel in my HT for years and wish I could keep it that way.  My system use is 80% music, much of it multichannel SACD & DVD-A, and 20% HD Sports/DVDs.

But...  a number of DVD-As and even a few SACDs absolutely require a center channel for their M/C mix.  I was all excited about the new Doors DVD-As until I found out that the only way to hear Jim Morrison sing in M/C is with a CC.  No matter how I set my player, I would not get a phantom center from these discs.  How frustrating is that!

So the software is pushing me, reluctantly, to put in a CC.  What a drag.

Russ