Does anyone ever trust the tubes an amp comes with??

sts9fan · « **on:** 28 Nov 2006, 07:10 pm »

So my question is does anyone ever trust the designer of an amp that they chose tubes that match the amp well? It seems like the first thing everyone does when they buy a 3k plus amp is switch out the tubes. Is there and companies out there that are not skimping on tubes? Is there a company you trust and would not change the tubes? Why would these small boutique companies voice with bad tubes? I expect bad tubes from Chinese imports but...

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Nov 2006, 07:32 pm »

They have an economic aspect attached with the tubes that come with the amplifier or preamplifier. If they were to do NOS on all tubes on an amplifier design, then, most probably they would have to overcharge down the supply line. No too many people would be willing to cough that many dollars on tubes and the amplifier, especially if they come from an SS amplifier background.

But, there are a couple of manufacturers that do add NOS valves on their designs from inception. Emotive Audio comes to mind. Also, even yamamoto soundcraft come to mind. As well as some manufactures from Japan. Leben amplifiers I believe come with a set of NOS tubes. Shindo Audio Laboratories also come to mind.

lcrim · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Nov 2006, 08:59 pm »

While I haven't received my amp yet, RAM Labs/Music Reference http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/ ships w/ matched and tested tubes.

Imperial · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Nov 2006, 09:16 pm »

I own an Earmax Pro.
The tubes that came with it were quite nice.
No problems ever. Of course I did eventually replace them for some nos tubes. aa

I belive that when one buys a tubeamplifier, one buys also the admisson ticket to more
or less have a say in the final outcome of the sound..
Tubeamplifiers are not as you will say, for those with a profound wish for ultimate correctness.
Now then, not hampered with the poor selection of choices offered by say a transistor amp, it is
part of the fun as to the ownership of a tubeamp to roll them tubes!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Nov 2006, 10:35 pm »

Funny, bad 'stock' tubes can work to one's advantage, too, sometimes.

Panor Corp, the owners of the name Dynaco, introduced the PAS-4 (tube) pre-amp....and sold most of the 1000 pieces produced to J & R Music in 1996 or so. Well, it seems J & R squeezed them for price hard and they sold them with really crummy (incredibly microphonic) chinese tubes of odd origin.

Suffice to say, the mostly mid-fi crowd at J & R that bought these returned them in droves - flooding Panor with returns and almost bankrupting them.

Hundreds were later sold as 'B' stock thru a couple close out guys at 50% off retail ($500.00).....now, with better quality Russian tubes in them.

It's a great pre-amp, I own one still today (5 years later), now re-tubed with nicer sounding than 'stock' (the second time around) tubes.

So, sometimes bad tubes can be good tubes - depending on where you are in the sales chain

hmen · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Nov 2006, 11:01 pm »

If you're building and selling amps you probably want to send the same tubes to every customer. It's probably very difficult to find a dependable source of large supplies of good tubes (which are usually NOS), especially when you're dealing in hundreds of units.

elcaptain88 · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 12:34 am »

Expensive NOS tubes aren't always the best option in my opinion. Current production EH and JJ tubes are very good and reliable (& cheap) - I've preferred them in many cases to some of the more hyped NOS tube alternatives.

S Clark · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 12:35 am »

I think Hmen has nailed the answer. I just got one of the first run of Dodd Battery Pre-amps that have JJ6922's stock, but he had a limited amount of Siemens 7308's that he thinks are better for a bit less than $100/pr. The list is now $3300; I suspect that most don't skimp on an extra 100 if you can improve the sound. The only thing that makes sense is the lack of a reliable supply for NOS.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 12:42 am »

I cannot speak for the other guys but I do not supply premium tubes in my products only because everyone seems to have a favorite they will run in the product. I use to supply my Signature 3205 (now the Bella EXtreme) with JAN Philips input and driver tubes and EH output tubes.
I still supply 'decent' tubes in my amps with EL34's being EH and 6550's being Sovtek WE metal base. Input tubes are Sovtek WA and drivers are EH. At least for the 3205 units.
My thoughts are to supply decent tubes so one can get a feelling for the product to be better able to make a better decision down the road when going for the upgrades. It is impossible to stock a large variety of high quality premium tubes to fit everyone's personal preference.

Most of the cheap Chinese products come with tubes that are crap, especially the small signal tubes. In fact, you can usually use these products as a speaker phone for your cell phone if you get too close.

This is not to say all Chinese tubes are bad as I am a big fan of the Valve Art and Shuguang tubes.

WEEZ · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 01:11 am »

I would think that most manufacturers' would supply tubes that (at the very least) 1; aren't microphonic' and 2) aren't noisy.

Some current production tubes are really pretty good. Some are so so. But the same can be said for NOS tubes. Some are good; some are so so. And improvements sought by us loony audiophiles can vary wildly depending on the particular curcuit and/or the fuction of the tube. The so-called 'great sonics' of a particular tube is usually far more audible in a gain stage than in a cathode follower stage. Or in a phase splitter stage. But again, this isn't universal. Power tubes do indeed have different sonic signatures- but what sounds oh-so-good in one curcuit might sound simply average in another curcuit.

For example; my preamplifier uses (2) 5814A's, and a single 5687. The unit came supplied with NOS Phillips JAN tubes. Of course I've tried the RCA 'blackplate' 5814's; and the Raytheon & Tung-Sol 5687's; and a few rare Telefunken's and Siemens. And while some of these sound great with certain recordings....none sound as 'univerally good' as the factory supplied Phillips tubes.

Most manufacturers have done their homework and offer the best tubes for 'most' applications. Some offer 'upgrades' at higher cost.

Changing tubes can be a fun and frustrating exercise all at the same time. It's just part of the sickness. The one that sounds the best to you probably IS the best.

Rolling on......

WEEZ

lcrim · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 05:55 am »

My Eastern Electric pre and phono are very sensitive to tube rolling, so much so that the importer, Bill O'Connell keeps a wide stock of tubes that he suggests you try out. The power amp sounds pretty much the same to me no matter which 6BM8 I've rolled in, once I changed out the rectifier for a Mullard GZ34, rectifier tubes make a big difference with this equipment.
My Decware Select came with and was voiced for an SV83 power tube but I much prefer it with EL84's
I just bought the 6EM7/13EM7 Amplifier from Roger Modjeski and he supplies a pair of matched tubes for it. I think Roger knows which tubes sound best.
The rule is that there is no rule.
The question as to whether anyone ever trusts the tubes an amp comes with is - sometimes.

warnerwh · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 06:20 am »

You never know how you'll like the stock tubes. In an Audio Research pre I had the EH 6922's were second favorites of mine. They became first after having numerous NOS issues, microphonics etc.

In my AVA Fetvalve 550 I really don't like the stock Tesla's and much prefer the Mullards. Someone else in a different system may be just the opposite. Don't discount the stock tubes. The EH's in the ARC pre were very good.

Many manufacturers want reliability also. Many of the current production tubes are quiet and reliable. You can't blame manufacturers for wanting reliability as service problems cost them money. When you use NOS tubes you don't know what's going to happen. Normally nothing gets hurt but the NOS tubes may work find for 2 weeks and get noisy. I had this happen to me a few times and it's annoying to pay good money for tubes only to have to return them.

Here's a tip I received early on in the tube world: Buy from a reputable dealer like the advertisers at AA. This is because they're great about replacing a tube you say got microphonic on you or any other problem. They may charge a bit more but it's worth it as they usually test all their tubes. EH tubes and some others are fine to buy off of Ebay as they're cheap and very reliable but NOS tubes even tested may become bad after a short period of time and if you spent any money on them you're out of luck on Ebay usually of returning them a month later.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #12 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 08:07 am »

I'd trust the tubes a KR amp came with.

http://www.kraudioproducts.com/Kr/ProductMain.aspx?CatID=14

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kraudio/antares.html

In this case:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0506/kr_audio_dx_monoblock.htm
and:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0503/kraudiokronzilla.htm

I think I'd have to trust them, if only for the fact that it would cost $11,000 to replace the 4 output tubes ($2750 each).

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #13 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 08:32 am »

Quote from: Russell Dawkins on 29 Nov 2006, 08:07 am

I'd trust the tubes a KR amp came with.

http://www.kraudioproducts.com/Kr/ProductMain.aspx?CatID=14

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kraudio/antares.html

In this case:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0506/kr_audio_dx_monoblock.htm
and:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0503/kraudiokronzilla.htm

I think I'd have to trust them, if only for the fact that it would cost $11,000 to replace the 4 output tubes ($2750 each).

Russell....I own a KR Audio Antares VA320 with the KR 842VHD tubes....and I hope these tubes never "go bad"...

But from what I have read, the KR Audio tubes are very well built and reliable....

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #14 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 03:28 pm »

NOS tubes will soon be gone(10-20 years) and the tubes being produced today seem to be very well made. The EH12AX7LPS maybe one of the great bargains out there. The Shuguang tubes are also very nice. It really is all about the desired tone the listener wishes to achieve. What may work for one person may not float the boat of another. I'll send a variety of NOS tubes out regularly to let folks audition before they purchase just to see what works for them in their system and to their liking. A perfect example was 2 customers sent 4 tubes to each of the different brands but the same brands to each customer, what made each one choose a different tube to keep?
What is nice is knowing that you were wise enough to go with tube components and for a relatively inexpensive after purchase you can shape your sound to your liking.
Sure , all manufacturers would love the good old days of $20 for a quad of Mullard EL34's, but those times are long gone. Now you can have a matched quad of lets say EH 6CA7 Fatbottles for about $80 a matched quad. Thats not a bad thing considering the time span of 40 years.

SET Man · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 05:54 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 29 Nov 2006, 08:32 am

Quote from: Russell Dawkins on 29 Nov 2006, 08:07 am
I'd trust the tubes a KR amp came with.

http://www.kraudioproducts.com/Kr/ProductMain.aspx?CatID=14

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kraudio/antares.html

In this case:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0506/kr_audio_dx_monoblock.htm
and:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0503/kraudiokronzilla.htm

I think I'd have to trust them, if only for the fact that it would cost $11,000 to replace the 4 output tubes ($2750 each).
Russell....I own a KR Audio Antares VA320 with the KR 842VHD tubes....and I hope these tubes never "go bad"...
But from what I have read, the KR Audio tubes are very well built and reliable....

Hey!

No worry! Chris my 842VHDs are 5 years old and still running strong

Well, they say it they do have 10,000 hours life span. I think I do have about 2 more years to go for these babies

From what I remember KR Audio had some problem when they first starting make tubes. But that was many moons ago. Now their tubes are of what I consider one of the best made today. If you ever hold one in your hand, you know that they are not any regular tube.

Expensive? Yes. But the quality and sound made them worth it for me.

So, yes if you amp come with KR tube like my than you could definitely trust them.

Take care,
Buddy

amplifierguru · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 Nov 2006, 09:40 pm »

Tubes being sensitive to shock and the vagaries of shipping handling would lead me to be suspicious of all tubes shipped in a product.

This is one reason I would never supply tubes in any of my kits.

The other is - they are all SS and likely to remain so.

Cheers,
Greg

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Nov 2006, 06:04 pm »

Agree totally with the construction of the KR tubes. Had an Antares 300B amp a while back and those 300B XLS tubes ( I think that was the number designation) were a wonder to behold. Heavy duty to say the least. May Dr. Kron rest in Peace.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Nov 2006, 06:45 pm »

Quote

May Dr. Kron rest in Peace.

An acquaintance knew Dr. Kron well, and held him in high esteem. Unfortunately he doesn't have the same regard for his widow - specifically they way she runs the company - so he and his partner recently dropped the KR line. His reasons are hearsay as far as I'm concerned, and I won't repeat them here, but things have apparently changed a lot since his death.

As for liking the tubes an amp comes with, I've never been tempted to change the 300Bs in my Butler Monads.

oldzmann · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Nov 2006, 06:52 pm »

I thought you sold your Monad's?

Does anyone ever trust the tubes an amp comes with??

S Clark