[matix]

After 6 months with my RM30M,  I finally took the plunge and fiddle with the putty and Lpads.  I remove quite a lot of putty, and the bass keeps on getting clearer and tighter.  Some booming problems with certain XRCD discs is almost eliminated.  I stopped removing more as I remembers JC post of not removing too many.  Will experiment with removing more  later.

As for the LPads,  is the left screw for the highs and the right screw for the mids?  I ended up putting both at 10 o'clock.  And with the CDWG off!  This gives me the best sounds so far.   Any advice before I proceed?

[fredgarvin]

When facing the l-pads from the rear of the speakers, the left one is the mid and the right one is the tweeter.

[warnerwh]

I'm afraid I'd suggest putting the waveguide back on. It's entirely possible that the reaction to the acoustics in your room it may have worked out sounding better than what you had. However I'd bet with them properly set up they'll sound much better with the waveguides on.

This can take some time. The potential of these speakers is at times mind boggling, and I'm on my third set of Brian's speakers. 

For me the RM 40's were the hardest to set up. That's pretty surprising being as I'd owned two other sets of VMPS speakers for quite a number of years prior. This had been because they have the most potential, more than I realized when I started. It still took me a long time to dial them in the best they could be in my room. I bet I could even get a tad more out of them but the point they're at now still amazes me.

Please take your time in setup. First of course getting the best sounding position for the speakers and listener position. That itself can take some time.  Then start taking out a fingernail full of putty on just one speaker. Listen to some music. I think you need a good variety of music as the recording engineers have widely varying ideas of what is best. Having excellent recordings of various bass frequencies makes this easier.

You'll hear the edge of the sound become better defined and quite possibly more powerful. I don't know if Brian had already dialed in your speakers or not as he's been doing this for a while now. Even if he did depending on your equipment and room there may still be significant adjustment to make.

Last week I acquired a new power amp to power my woofers. Just changing that amp meant I had to add some putty back. The sound was way off just from changing amps and that's something Brian can't do as he doesn't own every amp made etc.

Start with your pots exactly where they were. It's an easy mistake to make with VMPS speakers to want to turn the L pads down when in reality you need to remove putty, at least it's more likely you need to remove than add. You'll find a zone where you know it's close as the bass will be better defined, you may/will have more of it and the midrange clarity will improve.

I suggest you do what I've suggested. Start from scratch and let's see if your speakers sound better without the waveguides. Also don't feel bad, alot of us have made the same mistake including myself and my brother and my best friend not to mention alot of others who own these speakers.

If you want any help PM me and I'll help you. You can also find my number on the dealer list at the VMPS site if you'd like to call.

[James Romeyn]

When the CDW is attached to any VMPS ribbon that does not have the August '06 passive eq upgrades & that does not have the tweeter dehorned (easy visual confirmation), a 5 kHz/1st-order low-pass filter pole results, producing a predictable rolled-off tonal balance.  Your results seem consistent w/ this. 

The above retrofits (eq + tweeter) make the CDW mandatory; the retrofits w/o the CDW have an upward-tilted overly-bright tonal balance because of a 1st-order high-pass filter (slope is effective below 20 kHz  down to 5 kHz, flat response below 5 kHz). 

It can't be overstated that the above retrofits, properly employed in conjunction w/ the CDW yield overall performance far exceeding the same speaker setup for the standard grills.  I'd estimate about twice the overall listening satisfaction.  It's not subtle.  I recommend you inquire about getting the retrofits asap & before making any other changes.

The easiest way to approach the retrofit is to swap the tweeters for dehorned tweeters, find someone local who could properly perform a few simple internal mods (bypass internal xo parts), & get a price from VMPS for two new outboard xo (oxo).  Ask VMPS: Maybe the passive woofer xo needs no changes & could be left intact inside the speaker. 

Other than above, new xo's must be installed inside the speakers, & there's not a ton of room to get around in there.  It's easier w/ the M models having the side-firing 10" woofers.     

[Zheeeem]

Uh.  At this point you might ask Big B or John.

When I bought my RM30s a couple of months ago, Brian already pre-fiddled with the PRs and suggested that I didn't need to add or subtract putty.  He also suggested that I leave the WGs on, and that the L-pads were pretty much pre-set.  Of course, before buying them I advised Brian that I was, by nature, a neurotic mess and didn't want to get started on a never-ending tweaking exercise.  During early break-in they were a bit hot, and B advised dialing down the tweeter L-pad a smidgeon (which meant going from 12:30 to 12:00 in my case).

So what have I been doing to get the most out of my RM30s?

First, I hung some small (3x5 ish) persian rugs on the wall behind them.  Between the wall and the rug I put many many layers of heavy upholstery batting (so that I wasn't just damping high frequencies).  I also covered the side walls with about 60 square ft of acoustic foam.  And I insulated the floor (i.e., I stuffed the areas between the joists with gobs and gobs of fiberglass insulation.  Ouch!)  Heavy persian rug on the floor.  (I also found it important to soundproof my equipment rack, which is made from VERY HEAVY slabs of stone.)  The room is more-or-less OK for now.

I also worked on speaker placement.  The RM30s defy all my preconceived notions about speaker placement.  Just last night I made some slight (one inch) placement shifts, moving the speakers ever-so-slightly closer to the sidewalls.  My mind told me that this was probably going to be a mistake.  But my ears told me that it was a small but significant improvement in imaging and ease of performance.  Also, one of the early artifacts of the RM30s which bothered me was hearing sound (especially mid-highs) come directly from the speakers.  That has now all-but-disappeared.

OK.  So why all this blathering?  Because my RM30s, as delivered, were nearly perfect.  Honestly, I cannot imaging having made all the adjustments to the speakers that you have... not at the 6-month point anyhow.  I think you need "professional help".  (In fact, I've idly wondered what Big B would charge to make tune-up visits.  It would be tempting, except the possibility that he'd never leave and eat one out of house and home, playing loud opera all the while.)

I wish Brian had never made his 71Hz post.  I'm listening to Vivaldi cello sonatas at the moment (Wispelwey - pretty good).  I can hear it.  And I am mindful of a post Frank Van Alstine made a few days ago about having treated his ceiling to kill this wave.  Keeeerist my wife is gonna be pissed.

[James Romeyn]

...OK.  So why all this blathering?  Because my RM30s, as delivered, were nearly perfect.  Honestly, I cannot imaging having made all the adjustments to the speakers that you have... not at the 6-month point anyhow.  I think you need "professional help".  (In fact, I've idly wondered what Big B would charge to make tune-up visits.  It would be tempting, except the possibility that he'd never leave and eat one out of house and home, playing loud opera all the while.)...listening to Vivaldi cello sonatas at the moment (Wispelwey - pretty good).  I can hear it.  And I am mindful of a post Frank Van Alstine made a few days ago about having treated his ceiling to kill this wave.  Keeeerist my wife is gonna be pissed.

Zheeem
Your line above about the potential result of a visit by Brian is probably the funniest thing (& most accurate) I've read about him, & I've known him for about 30 years.  Please post more...

What type treatment did Frank describe to tame a 71 Hz mode?  It takes a very high volume of treatment to eat 70 Hz waves.

The reason for the descrepency in satisfaction between your speakers & the original poster is that your speakers were delivered w/ all necessary updates for the CDW, including hand-tweaked xo values for your exact speakers, while the original poster's speakers apparently have non of the necessary CDW updates.   

[matix]

When the CDW is attached to any VMPS ribbon that does not have the August '06 passive eq upgrades & that does not have the tweeter dehorned (easy visual confirmation), 

Hi Jim

I think the OXO etc. is too complicated at the moment... How can can visually check if the tweeters are dehorned?  Thanks..

[Bob Wilcox]

Non-de-horned FST tweeters have a circular mounting plate and a wire screen over the the driver. De-horned tweeters have the mounting plate and screen removed and can be damaged easily due to the exposed foil surface and high magnetism attracting small loose metal objects. My waveguides are the early speaker grill look-alikes so the tweeters have some protection from the grill cloth. If I need to do anything with the waveguides off, I tape playing cards over the tweeters to protect them. Tape alone can come into contact with the driver foil. If de-horning tweeters, consult the sticky. 

Jim is correct about the need to dehorn the tweeter and have the crossover modified to get the full effect. I started out with only the waveguides and updated passive radiators when adding the CDWG for the RM 40s was introduced. Without de-horning the tweeter, there is a certain dullness. De-horning the tweeter relieved this  but there was still a problem spot where the midrange did not sound totally phase correct. Fixing the crossover transformed the sound. Although you will still get the driver blending and balance effects with just the waveguide installed, until all of this is done, you may well prefer to leave the waveguide off.

Since the RM 30s can be shipped at reasonable cost, you may want to send them back for retrofit to the full CDWG treatment if you don't have it. My RM40s could not be shipped both ways for less than a grand so I de-horned the tweeters and installed the crossover mod myself.

Bob

[Zheeeem]

Zheeem
Your line above about the potential result of a visit by Brian is probably the funniest thing (& most accurate) I've read about him, & I've known him for about 30 years.  Please post more...

What type treatment did Frank describe to tame a 71 Hz mode?  It takes a very high volume of treatment to eat 70 Hz waves.

The reason for the descrepency in satisfaction between your speakers & the original poster is that your speakers were delivered w/ all necessary updates for the CDW, including hand-tweaked xo values for your exact speakers, while the original poster's speakers apparently have non of the necessary CDW updates.   

Uhmmmm...  Well I'm absolutely certain that he's a fine gentleman and all that.  But when someone says "Name one of the real "characters" in HE audio these days" Big B comes to mind immediately.

I can't find Frank's post about room treatments.  Sorry.  IIRC he sonexed the ceiling in a LEDE arrangement.  He only posted it in the past week or so, but I'm not really able to use the search feature successfully.

Yeah.  I suspected that matix had older RM30s that he was retrofitting with the CDWG.  But wasn't sure, as he said he'd had 'em 6-months.  Maybe it was the putty that threw me.  It wasn't (and still isn't) clear to me why one would need to remove "large" amounts of putty to tune the PRs just by adding the WG.  Some tuning is needed I'm sure.  But large amounts?

Anyhow, if it was me, I'd send them back to Brian for retrofitting.  I'm reasonably comfortable with room and placement tuning.  But am desperately unhappy with things like tone controls.  For one brief unhappy time I actually owned an equalizer and was completely miserable.

[matix]

Looks like it is end of the road for me.  I am in Singapore.   

[Zheeeem]

Looks like it is end of the road for me.  I am in Singapore.   

I wouldn't fret too much.  There's a sticky on dehorning your tweeter.

I seems to me, if I were to do it myself, that the first thing to do would be dehorning, then installing the WG, then tuning the L-Pads, then tuning the PRs.  I'm sure that Big B would be happy to walk you through it step by step.  (A phone call might help, too, since Brian's written replies tend to be 1-2 words long.)

Didn't mean to depress you.  Most of my natterings related to my preference not to do my own speaker tuning.

[Brian Cheney]

The RM 30's sent to Singspore last year were the first to have the CDWG and lacked both dehorned tweeters and the xover EQ upgrade.  We sent the importer both items but don't know if they ever reached the end users.

Matix, contact me directly for parts and instructions if you want to do these upgrades yourself.   Otherwise use an equalizer to boost the upper mids and trebles when using the CDWG, or leave it off during listening.

[avahifi]

Actually I Sonexed the ceiling in a dead end dead end room treatment, covering all the walls with acoustic fabric wall paper (available at any quality wall paper store). Turned a horrible suburban "acoustic box" family room into a space where I can mostly hear the system, the music, and not much else.  Cost about $700 to do the ceiling, another $800 for the walls. Only drawback, the acoustic fabric is of a perfect consistency for cat's claws, and when an 18 pound cat decides to climb up the wall all the way to the ceiling "spydercat!!" and then the glue finally lets go, you got one hell of a mess of cat, wallpaper, and whatall in a big heap at the bottom.  Oh well. 

Frank Van Alstine

[James Romeyn]

Once & for all but certainly not the last time:

CDW vmps is "must have".

CDW vmps w/o passive eq AND dehorned tweeter is "must modifiy" (to remove 1st-order rolloff @ 5 kHz).

WITH vs. withOUT CDW can only be compared by swapping xo's & tweeters between auditions.  OTHERWISE, COMPARISONS VERBOTEN BECAUSE OF RADICAL SPECTRAL IMBALANCE.

[matix]

Hi all, 

I have been reading a bit about DEQX,  still don't understand completely yet....

If I dehorn the tweeter and get the DEQX,  will it fix the problem? 

[John Casler]

Hi all, 

I have been reading a bit about DEQX,  still don't understand completely yet....

If I dehorn the tweeter and get the DEQX,  will it fix the problem? 

Hi Matix,

The DEQX may help with the equalization and crossover manipulation, but the "dehorning" should be done, regardless, for all CDWG models.

[James Romeyn]

Hi all, 

I have been reading a bit about DEQX,  still don't understand completely yet....

If I dehorn the tweeter and get the DEQX,  will it fix the problem? 

For clarification, we assume your question is specifically asking, "What is necessary to properly audition the CDW on a VMPS speaker built before late Aug/early Sept '06, w/ tweeter horns intact & w/o the current passive eq." 

The spectral change caused by installing the CDW can be defined as a 1st-order low-pass filter pole at 5 kHz.  So, in order to correct this spectral imbalance, the CDW must be auditioned only w/ the inverse filter pole added at the same time (1st-order high-pass pole at 5 kHz). 

At least one method exists to accomplish this.  Employ a properly dehorned tweeter & swap the mid/treble xo for the latest "Passive EQ" xo from VMPS.  The current passive eq was not born till late Aug/early Sept.  Speakers born before that time need updated xo's.  Some also need tweeter dehorning.  Current passive EQ include hand tweeking of at least one xo component on each speaker pair for ideal blending between the mid/treble. 

If you can replicate the above filter in some other way, including but not limited to a graphic or digital eq, have at it.  All forms of xo introduce artifacts, some more audible than others.  VMPS' method does not introduce any new artifacts because it simply is a modification of the passive analog xo already existing in the speaker.