[sheadlee]

Shane,

Once again...thank you for your hospitality  !

It was good to see you guys, again!

The 'Fantasy Room' sound was awesome!!! We started with the Belles amps, and the large (?) speakers (forgot the name...senior moment). The combo certainly sounded good...very clean, and open. Next we switched to the Butler Monads and Usher BE-20's...WOW...awesome sound with this combo. Clean, articulate, transparent, fast, wide & deep soundstage...made you just want to listen to the music and forget everything else.

I still can't figure out how to post pictures on this forum...so this link will carry you to the pictures

 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=909

[hometheaterdoc]

Steve,

I'm glad you enjoyed it.... and you are very welcome.  Come on back anytime.

The speaker we played first was the Escalante Design Fremont.  More info here:

http://www.escalantedesigns.com/viewer/home/fremont.asd

I don't remember if you were the room at the time (I'm pretty sure everyone was there for this), but we did play the ED Fremonts with the Butler right after the Belles MB-01 monoblocks to do an A/B comparison there.   

I'm going to try a couple things with the original setup of Belles/ED tomorrow morning and see if anything changes.  I only got the MB-01 monoblocks on Friday afternoon...so I haven't had a lot of time to figure out what works best with them yet...these MB-01s in silver belong to the national sales rep and are a fully broken in pair.  There was a slight delay getting my demo pair built in time for the show.  I wanted my pair of MB-01 monoblocks in black because I prefer that color for my gear.  They weren't yet available in black, only silver.  Dave decided to offer them in black, but he has been waiting on black chassis parts and it's taken longer than anticipated.  Rather than have no amps at all to listen to at this comparison, the rep was kind enough to send me his pair for the weekend.   I'll get some time on them and figure out what cabling, etc. works best with them.

[Hantra]

Thanks again Shane.  I had a really good time listening to all this nice gear! 

I feel that the Escalantes could be better.  I really didn't get the chance to listen to them with a serious ear, but at the price, I'm not even sure I want to do that.  While I respect it, and really was impressed with the finish, it's simply not a $20k speaker.  If their designer up and leaves again, like he did at Talon, the prices will be in the creek.  See the latest Talon Raven X's for like $2k on Audiogon.  They stickered for $12k.

Nevertheless, I did enjoy listening to the Ushers.  I was totally unprepared to even like the Ushers.  The brand is respectable, and what they can do for the money, from what I've heard, is great!  But the Be20 is in another league really than any I've heard. 

What impressed me the most was that the mids and highs were so incredibly quick, just like my planar/ribbon hybrids.  But what also was impressive was that visceral impact I got from the highs and mids that I just don't get from my speakers.  They just move so much more air, and still manage to be as fast as my drivers.  I am impressed.  I was totally unprepared for the price.  I was expecting the normal value that Usher speakers usually provide, but at $16k, I was shocked!  I totally expected this speaker, even though it's an Usher, to be $40k.  I mean let's be honest, if Kharma can get $100k for a smaller version with ceramic drivers, then surely the value-driven Usher can do it for $40k!  But 16k!?  That's incredible! 

While I never thought I would be an Usher owner, it is something I would truly consider when I move into a larger room, and have to sacrifice my beloved Piegas.  I just don't think the old boys would like a big room.     I do think that the Ushers would have been A LOT better if we had time to properly place them.  We (Shane) just kinda plopped them down in a spot, and toed them once by guesswork.  This is such a precision speaker, and so fast, I think it would benefit a lot from proper placement, and alignment.  I know it took me almost a year to get mine right, and I think any time you have a superbly fast and accurate high/mid, it's going to be glaringly obvious when they're misaligned. 

I think this may have been the reasons that the Ushers just weren't doing it for every type of music.  Anything live was astounding.  Later on, I played with some Smashing Pumpkins, and it sounded a bit thin.  Sort of scooped out really, and not how I'm used to hearing SP.  Of course the SP's aren't known for great recordings, but I've listened to this a lot, and was missing something between the upper mids and lows.  Again, it was probably a placement issue. 

And, bless his heart, Shane hasn't the most perfect room.  That could be part of the problem.  I respect the Tact, but if you have a good room that's properly treated, it is subtractive (in my experience).  I think without it in Shane's room, it would have been rough.  Especially with the haphazard placement. 

Regardless, these small issues can be expected with a gathering where speakers are being hefted around and swapped out.  Even with this issue, I was markedly impressed with these Ushers. 

And what can I say about the Butler that hasn't already been said.  Still one of the top 2-3 amplifiers I've ever heard.  I was immediately stunned when we swapped the Butler in on the Escalantes.  I thought they were lifeless, and flat speakers.  I think they just needed the love they got from these Butlers.  And they were actually very dynamic with the Monads, versus the Belles.  The Belles reminded me of that Mark Levinson sound.  Great, superbly detailed, quiet, and utterly boring.     I'm sure they'd be better on other speakers, and Shane mentioned he just got 'em, so I'm not discounting them just yet. 

I would like to hear the Butlers here against the MC-501's, but I think the Butlers have gone up to stratospheric levels since I first heard them, and the chance that they'd drive the Piegas to their potential is just slim. 

Again, I sincerely enjoyed the day.  It was great to see some new faces at our meet, and I am looking forward to the next one.  I would love to host here, but my room is so incredibly small, it would certainly suck. 

Thanks again Shane!  (and Heather) 

[Double Ugly]

Sounds like you folks had a great time.  Wish I could've been there, especially to hear the Ushers and Fremonts.   

... and the chance (the Butlers would) drive the Piegas to their potential is just slim.  (please pardon the edit for brevity - JHH)

You may be right, B, if your Piegas drop below 4 Ohms.  But if it's current that makes them sing, and assuming phase angle isn't an issue, I suspect you'd be as surprised as I the first time I fired them up.  I was cynical, too, as I'd only heard them paired with 96dB Daedalus DA-1s.  Imagine my surprise when they proved as quick and produced better dynamics with my 85dB speakers than a 300W chip amp I used to own.  They also happen to produce the best, most communicative bass I've heard in my system.

FWIW...

-Jim

PS - What'd you guys think of the Be20's highs?  I've wanted to hear the Berilium tweeter for a while now, but time and opportunity have yet to cooperate.

[Hantra]

You may be right, B, if your Piegas drop below 4 Ohms.  But if it's current that makes them sing, and assuming phase angle isn't an issue, I suspect you'd be as surprised as I the first time I fired them up. 

PS - What'd you guys think of the Be20's highs?  I've wanted to hear the Berilium tweeter for a while now, but time and opportunity have yet to cooperate.

These go to 3 Ohms, and I'm not sure why they're so difficult to drive.  I always assumed it was the massive crossover.  It's a very complex crossover, as one can imagine would be necessary with a coaxial driver arrangement. 

I very much enjoyed the Be highs.  They were like nothing I have ever heard from a dynamic tweeter. 

[Jon L]

I'm not surprised you guys are rather shocked by the Usher BE20's.  In the last couple of years, I've auditioned quite a few speakers, and the Usher BE10's are the ones I would get if I could choose any of them right now. 

Those beryllium midrange and tweeters are simply resolution monsters that also have tons of weight and impact behind the treble/mid notes, unlike many planar/ribbon/electrostat drivers out there...

[George]

Shane, thank you much for opening your doors for the shoot-out. I had a great time and Miss Heather is certainly one of the great Chili Chefs in all the world.

I sent you an e-mail via your website's contact address, look forward to seeing you soon.

[Inscrutable]

Well, the other guys have done a good job articulating their impressions, and I think we were all in agreement.  The BE20's had all of what I remember liking in the Dancer 8571, and then some.  The tweeter/highs were the same, but the addition of the beryllium midrange made these really sing. Both these models - the BE20 at 16k and the 8571 at half that - are both outright steals.


Totally agree with Brandon on the change from the Belles to the Monads.  I was extremely non-plussed with the Fremonts when they were being driven by the Belles (perhaps the whole chain of TacT, Belles, and Fremonts was just too much 'accuracy' for me to enjoy), but once the Monads were switched in, they were much more musical.

And while we all love the Monads, I would be curious just how much the BE20's give up with somewhat more modest amplification, like two 2250's in mono.

It was a shame the Adagio's weren't able to be placed in service, with all the praise they are getting.

Many thanks to Shane and Heather for putting on a great meet.

[Hantra]

Shane, thank you much for opening your doors for the shoot-out. I had a great time and Miss Heather is certainly one of the great Chili Chefs in all the world.

I sent you an e-mail via your website's contact address, look forward to seeing you soon.

Haha!  After seeing the web link you have, I kinda wish I'd waited 'til Sunday to attend.   

[George]

I didn't bite a single person while I was there.

[hometheaterdoc]

Some thoughts:

First of all, thanks again to all who attended on both days.  It was great to meet a few new faces and catch up with old ones as well.  I got to meet a few new "characters" that I hope attend future meetings.  There were a few who wanted to make it but couldn't and some who said they were going to make it and didn't.  For those of you, I hope all is well and you didn't get stuck in the middle of a mall during this rush of present buying....  you should have been at my place buying presents for yourself

The setup overall was not ideal for this meet.  By swapping in speakers (especially ones of this size and weight!!!), I knew we wouldn't get things perfectly aligned.  B is right... The Ushers would benefit from better setup/positioning and I think it would take them up another couple notches.  Since I'm pretty sure they are staying, I'm now going to  spend some time fine tuning them to get the best performance out of them possible.  We may need to meet again to critique my results

I made some changes with the Butler/Usher setup on Sunday that appealed to folks in attendance and seemed to take things up a couple notches.  I also made a change with the Tact mid-meeting that also met with approval.  We did more varied listening on Sunday and folks in attendance were impressed with the dynamics and attack of things.  At the very end of Sunday evening, Rich and I spent some time with the Belles/Usher combo.  I used different cabling in the system for this comparison and it definitely changed the character of the Belles presentation.  I think it was a very good improvement.  Also, running the Belles straight into the wall, instead of conditioning them helped make them more forward sounding instead of so laid back.  However, it also introduced back the grunge and overall crappy power issues I have at this place.

Quite honestly, the Butler Monad has ruined me from ever truly enjoying another amplifier.  It is the best amplifier I've heard under $30K.  It does everything I want an amplifier to do and then some.  The presentation it offers and the kind of sound it produces is right up my alley.  I try to find other, less expensive amps that will work for me and it's just not happening and, I fear, is a fruitless search.  I know everyone hears differently and everyone is looking for something different on what they want their music to sound like.  But when I buy one of the amps that everyone raves about, put it in my system, and compare it to the Monads, I'm always left shaking my head at what others are hearing that I'm not....

If only there could be a way to offer the Monad at a lower MSRP price.  I honestly think more folks would buy them.  But the $19K MSRP price is definitely a barrier that most will never break through.  I'm just not sure I can ever live without them, no matter how much cheaper gear I sell and how much that warrants showroom floor space over these esoteric pieces.

I think I can safely say that folks were impressed with the value of the Usher offerings, most notably in the "Reality Room" with the new V series of speakers and the little S-520s.  But even the Be-20s are a steal at their price point, given how much speaker you get for the dollar.  Brandon, I really think a pair of Be-10s would work in your existing room and would make you give up the Piegas.  I'm really taken with the beryllium drivers in this speaker.  It's got so much resolution, but doesn't sound harsh like other drivers I've heard.  The weight and presence of the speaker is palpable and the way that it hits you in the chest with its visceral impact both in the bass AND in the mid-high end is unique in my listening experiences.  The speed of a planar, but the weight that a planar could only hope to achieve.  It's definitely the best speaker I've had in any of these rooms to date.

The Be-20s are juuuuuust a touch too big for my room.  The Be-10s would work better.  But the impact of that extra bass driver and larger cabinet is hard to deny when really cranking things up.

The Escalante Fremont is a truly fantastic speaker.  I think it works best with tubes.  The tricked out Tact, combined with the extreme neutrality of the Belles amps and the Fremonts being so neutral themselves definitely resulted in too much "truth"/accuracy coming through.  Changing up a couple things in the chain, and dropping in some tubes made the Fremonts ooooh so yummy.  Different front end gear, even with the Belles MB-01 monoblocks made all the difference to that combo as well.  I wish now everyone could have heard that.  Oh well....another meeting, maybe?

I do want everyone to hear the Acoustic Zen Adagio stuff.  I just didn't have time to set that up as well..... so much to do, so little time to do it.... maybe after Christmas we'll do a more home theater/mid priced two channel kind of meet.  I have lots of gear here that needs to find a new home now that I've made a few choices/decisions

Once again, thank you all for coming and for your feedback on the products presented.

[richidoo]

Thanks Shane for the great meet, food and all the hard work you put in to get ready for the fun day.

I attended on Sunday, so didn't get to hear the first time around with the Belles and Freemont setups. I heard them in different combinations at RMAF so I wasn't too disappointed to miss them on Saturday. I agree that the Ushers are a superior speaker in overall performance, and in performance/price. Of course sonic memory is easily smeared over time, and I hope to get to hear Fremont again at some point. he Ushers are prettier!

I liked the big Belles amp too. It was clear and authoritative. I didn't hear the AC grunge you're talking about Shane. I thought the tone was very pure and dynamics were excellent. If I hadn't been listening to Monad for the previous 2 hours I would have been pretty satisfied with the Belles monoblock. But then there' always the Butler factor and you can't ignore it! I couldn't put it into words but I loved the musical sound of the monads and I felt it was pretty obvious difference from the Belles. The music was more alive, more exciting. The monad had a more 3 dimensional presentation, where the music came out in front of the plane of the speakers, whereas the Belles was 3D but only behind the speakers. I had the impression that there was a clear glass wall there and the music was stuck behind it, even though it was all crystal clear. This is voodoohifi talk, I know, but I guess that's why the monads are selling at the higher price. If you can hear it and willing to pay for the difference, then I guess it is real.

I thought the BE20s were very detailed, but I like ribbon tweeters and I never really dig the beryllium sound whether Wilson, Focal, now Usher. I can understand the appeal though, they are fun to listen to.

I'm still looking fwd to hearing the Cayin monoblocks on the Adagios.

Thanks again for a fun time Shane. I look forward to meeting more people at the next go round.
Rich

[hometheaterdoc]

Shane,

Once again...thank you for your hospitality  !

Steve,

Please check your PMs.  Thanks!

Shane

[vrao81]

Hey-
I just want to say thanks to Shane for hosting this meet, there was a lot of great gear here not to mention great people too! 
I really liked the Usher BE20 - I would go so far as to say they are the best system I've ever heard - you just hear music and forget about audio...that is the real goal of audio, to make you forget about gear and lose yourself in the music...the BE20's do this! Its way out of my price range now, but someday...
I also bought a pair of the Usher S520..for what Shane is selling 'em for they are an outright steal. They are very refined and image very well..I thought they were better than the larger more expensive Usher bookshelves that I also got to hear. Those were more laid back and sweeter sounding but didn't image as well and sounded a little boxy. I've played around with a lot of low cost, entry level speakers from various makers over the years, and the Usher pretty much beats everything hands down. A great speaker.
Can't wait for the next meet!