Should I go for a SET?

robert1325 · « **Reply #40 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 03:32 pm »

Thanks a lot for all the answers!

This leaves about three options for me I think?

1. Higher powered (845 / kt88) SET with a subwoofer + line level crossover,

I always tought subwoofers had their own internal crossover? If not, what is an affordable line level crossover ( Just a simple one, maybe passive? )

2. A push pull triode design: I think this one will fit the job, it's suposed to be similar to the cayin a88t , wich is similar to macintosh mc275...

http://www.pacificvalve.us/XSD2020AKT8.html ( I live in The Netherlands, but I could get it from a chinese vendor)

3. Tubed pre + SS power amp : http://www.pacificvalve.us/XS728III.html

There's to much choice to go into that now....

If I went for options 1 or 2 I could always change my speakers later... once I get bored with them

Thanks again, This is a very good forum!!!

I first read about the bolder modded squeezebox here and to this day I am still very greatfull for that ( It's a killer device)

miklorsmith · « **Reply #41 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 04:09 pm »

Check these out:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=harrison+labs&sacat=293%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=98036&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=

I've used these for a while. I'm using the 70 hz low-pass filter right now while my TacT is in the shop - works great in a pinch.

Upsides - cheap, work great, passive
Downsides - not ultimately transparent (though not bad), not adjustable. You'll have to guess what value will be optimal.

If you get a couple of different sets, you can combine them to lower the effective cancellation frequency. Contact them to see what different combinations will yield. Once upon a time I used these for an integrated amp to power the second voice coils in Gallo Ref. 3's.

There are surely other ways to do this, I'm sure Behringer's got your back. That would be more complex, as their stuff almost all runs off balanced connectors. And, it's another component in the rack and signal path with a lot more functionality than you need.

If it were me, I'd go with the high-powered SET and the Fmod XO'd at 80 hz, high pass. You'll need a line-level split and set the sub to 80 hz. You did say you wanted to try a SET amp. Some might say to go 100 hz or even higher with the high pass, but I'd be leery of that, as blending the sub would become significantly more difficult.

dado5 · « **Reply #42 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 04:31 pm »

Purely IMO, a DHT SET is pure magic. A KT88 set will not give you any more volume than a 300B though the 845 would. Class A triode PP captures much of the same magic, but using feedback and/or class AB topology sucks some of that juice away. And I have not heard a triode wired pentode that commands the mid and upper ranges like a DHT. Not that this kind of amp sounds bad, rather only DHTs convey that last level of intimacy, delicacy and natural flow. I still say try a SET and see if it grabs ya.

Some subwoofers do have a line level high pass function. Many times though this is fixed (80Hz is common). Remember you are not just cutting the highs out of the subwoofer (all subs do that) you are also cutting the lows out of the SET. You may require a line level hi pass to do that. There are many active ones out there and these would allow both the high and low pass functions to be managed. Here is a line level passive that is a fairly inexpensive first step if your sub does not have a high pass function.

http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossover/

duggie · « **Reply #43 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 04:36 pm »

no, you still have other options.

why not a tubed pre & a tubed amp? and, i would recommend an amp that has triode/ultralinear switching; the integrated amp you show is only ultralinear.

here's typical amps found on ebay, along w/a typical preamp:

http://cgi.ebay.com/KT88-VACUUM-Valve-Tube-Int-Push-Pull-Amplifier-SV-NR_W0QQitemZ130050076542

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-XDSE-KT88-x4-Class-A-Stereo-Integrated-Tube-Amp_W0QQitemZ130048286183

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300051467790

also, i personally would not get an integrated amp unless it has main inputs/preamp outputs, because i would want to run actively crossed-over subwoofers (a pair, not just one). you can do this w/an integrated amp w/main ins/pre outs, by placing the active x-over in this loop. then the integrated's internal tube amp will be crossed over at the x-over position of choice for the main speakers, & the outboard s/s amps are crossed over to the subs. you can use active subs w/built-in x-over, but you will still get better results w/an active outboard x-over. just set the subs to their highest x-over setting, & have the outboard x-over set lower. i got good results w/active subs set at 140hz, & w/my marchand x-over set at 80hz.

http://marchandelec.com/

of course, my passive vmps largers w/outboard amps sound better. aa using an active sub's built-in electronic crossover for your monitors, or using passive x-overs like the harrison labs mentioned above, will work in a pinch, but you will lose resolution...

Quote from: robert1325 on 21 Nov 2006, 03:32 pm

Thanks a lot for all the answers!

This leaves about three options for me I think?

1. Higher powered (845 / kt88) SET with a subwoofer + line level crossover,

I always tought subwoofers had their own internal crossover? If not, what is an affordable line level crossover ( Just a simple one, maybe passive? )

2. A push pull triode design: I think this one will fit the job, it's suposed to be similar to the cayin a88t , wich is similar to macintosh mc275...

http://www.pacificvalve.us/XSD2020AKT8.html ( I live in The Netherlands, but I could get it from a chinese vendor)

3. Tubed pre + SS power amp : http://www.pacificvalve.us/XS728III.html

There's to much choice to go into that now....

If I went for options 1 or 2 I could always change my speakers later... once I get bored with them

Thanks again, This is a very good forum!!!

I first read about the bolder modded squeezebox here and to this day I am still very greatfull for that ( It's a killer device)

JLM · « **Reply #44 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 04:39 pm »

This idea of using a SET with Dynaudio drivers IMO is an excercise in futility.

Last year I tried using a 6 wpc Red Wine Audio Clari-T with my 89 dB/w/m full range speakers. Yes it worked, and worked amazingly well, but swapping out for a 30 or 40 wpc amp turned the speakers from polite dinner guests into NFL linebackers in tuxes. Even before I tried this and now more than ever I believe that the amp should be sized to provide a commanding grip of the speaker.

Yes, it can work, but you'll be missing the full potential of both the amp and the speakers. Like driving a BMW on bicycle tires.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #45 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 04:55 pm »

Did anybody notice that the brand of the Chinese preamp, above is "Music Angel", yet the name burned into the beautiful faceplate is "Music Angle"?

I love my Music Angle, it's sooo a-cute.

duggie · « **Reply #46 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 05:46 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 21 Nov 2006, 04:55 pm

Did anybody notice that the brand of the Chinese preamp, above is "Music Angel", yet the name burned into the beautiful faceplate is "Music Angle"?

I love my Music Angle, it's a-cute.

yup, i *did* notice that. reminds me of the lovume control where the volume control should be, in someone's avatar here.

nathanm · « **Reply #47 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 10:37 pm »

That Music Angle\Angel has some great looking knobs! Wooden faceplate ain't bad either. Too bad it's so "facadey".

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #48 on:** 22 Nov 2006, 11:22 pm »

Here my experiences regarding SET amps over the 8 months or so and things I've learned. I have owned 3 845-based SETs including my current Consonance 845 monoblocks, which drive Hyperion speakers, and also have a Dared 2A3 amp driving Zu Druids.

I don't really understand some of the "big-tube" naysaying in this thread, as IMO the 845 produces some of the most pure, sweet mids of any triode. The 2A3 is nice, for sure, but I can tell you that my 845 system sounds better than the 2A3 (and it should, given other factors). The 845 IS a DHT so I don't see any real distinction here other than the power.

Regarding drivers for the 845: these Consonance amps do use 5687, and they sound VERY powerful on 90dB, SET-friendly speakers in a large room, with excellent dynamics. One might say the Chinese don't know what they're doing using the 5687 here, but deHavilland uses 6SN7s to drive their 845s which, I'm told, have even less voltage swing. This is probably more detail than you're interested in now (and this stuff is a bit over my head as well... I just know the amps sound very good, and big). It should be noted that Cary uses a 300B driver to push the tube into A2 for massive power; this is another thing altogether. And many claim that has a sonic penalty. I don't know.

The first time I heard a SET system was a revelation for me and the first SET amp I had in my home, even more so. So, I really want you to encourage you to try this, but those who are pointing out the issues with your speakers are probably correct. Now, I have driven DynAudio monitors less efficient than yours, and well, with a 22W triode push-pull amp, but most SETs are different due to the damping factor, which means high reactance with big impedance dips, as others have pointed out.

Regarding bass in general with SETs, I can tell you that it is EXCELLENT with the Hyperions with the 845s and excellent as well with the little 2A3 amp on the extremely efficient Druids. By this I mean that it is not underdamped, or wooly, to any extent for me; I find it entirely realistic and pleasant.

I happen to believe that SET magic comes largely from two areas: the lack of a phase-splitter (simple circuit another benefit) and the total lack of negative feedback. The best push-pull amps I've heard were also 0 negative feedback: AES Six Pacs. These amps also had rather high output impedance (poor damping factor) and yet also had great bass. Usually, a really small amount, 3 or 6 dB, of NF has little audible penalty. But NF is one of the biggest areas where what measures better sounds worse, nearly guaranteed!! NFB kills air and dimensionality and truncates decays prematurely. Once you hear 0 NFB amps, you finally realize you were missing some of the music.

Well, that's about it for now. As for 'advice' - It is fairly likely that you'll have to deal with some loose bass using SET on your current speakers, unless you high-pass them and get a sub. If you do so, I think even 8W would be sufficient power. However, the tube in that range - the 300B - I happen to think sounds inferior to the stuff both below and above it in the power range. At least a lot of the time.

robert1325 · « **Reply #49 on:** 23 Nov 2006, 03:59 pm »

thank you, I'll see if I can try some tube amps on the speakers I own... The SS amp I own at the moment isn't that bad at all, once you get used to it

But when listening to my dads PP 300B sound , I realise there's a lot of soul missing on my system

Push-pull would be a good alternative...

robert1325 · « **Reply #50 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 04:52 pm »

Hi, I'm sorry to ressurect this thread again...

I looked up some info on my my speakers , they only go down to 70hz, and the manual says the LF driver has no network?

The speakers are chinese, the vendor I got them from , told me they can be driven with an 300B amp. Today I played the speakers on my dads audion silver knight 300B (25wpc PP) and they really rocked!!! My current SS amp is a terrible match with these speakers, I do believe the speakers are more suitable for tube amps. There was even more and tighter bass! ( my ss has 2x100watts and a 400watt Torid trafo)

Just wanted to share this with you !

toobluvr · « **Reply #51 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 05:23 pm »

Quote from: robert1325 on 3 Dec 2006, 04:52 pm

Hi, I'm sorry to ressurect this thread again...

I looked up some info on my my speakers , they only go down to 70hz, and the manual says the LF driver has no network?

The speakers are chinese, the vendor I got them from , told me they can be driven with an 300B amp. Today I played the speakers on my dads audion silver knight 300B (25wpc PP) and they really rocked!!! My current SS amp is a terrible match with these speakers, I do believe the speakers are more suitable for tube amps. There was even more and tighter bass! ( my ss has 2x100watts and a 400watt Torid trafo)

Just wanted to share this with you !

Just goes to show...ya gotta try it and use your own ears.

The consensus here was that an amp like that would have no chance on your Dynaudio drivers.
Your experience says otherwise.
Sometimes numbers, and intuition, aren't the whole story.

Dmason · « **Reply #52 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 06:49 pm »

No one mentioned push-pull DHT 300B; a whole other story. Single ended triode will just bounce off those Dynaudios.

robert1325 · « **Reply #53 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 07:39 pm »

I'll get a push-pull, The SS I have now, is truly horendous with these speakers ( my old speakers sounded much better)

Does it really matter if I go for a el84 or el34 based tube amp compared to a 300B?
I don't like the price of 300B in a PP amp ( 4x)

The little cayin el84 (2x 12watts ) looks nice !

or some ming- da amp?

JLM · « **Reply #54 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 08:12 pm »

I tried a 12 wpc tube integrated with my 89 dB/w/m speakers. Initially thought it provided great bass, but in reality it was poorly dampened (bloated) bass. With a 70 Hz cutoff you have mid-bass, but no deep bass, so maybe it won't be a problem.

toobluvr · « **Reply #55 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 09:18 pm »

Quote from: Dmason on 3 Dec 2006, 06:49 pm

No one mentioned push-pull DHT 300B; a whole other story. Single ended triode will just bounce off those Dynaudios.

Not true at all.
Maybe not 300B specifically, but several members in this thread have suggested PP triode as worth looking into.

Also, I would go for more than 12wpc.
Bass is not the only issue. Overall grip and control also matter.
In addition to better bass, more power should also give a more open sound with greater authority and ease.

robert1325 · « **Reply #56 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 09:26 pm »

ok more power.... how about the music curve d2020a ? a kt88 PP that is not very different from the famous cayin a88t:

http://www.pacificvalve.us/XSD2020AKT8.html

Thanks for your input

toobluvr · « **Reply #57 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 10:05 pm »

Couldn't say...I don't know that amp.

On the surface, looks like it might have potential, but who knows?

robert1325 · « **Reply #58 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 10:15 pm »

Your system looks very nice ! DODD mono's

mca · « **Reply #59 on:** 3 Dec 2006, 10:16 pm »

My vote would be for this amp:

http://www.responseaudio.com/bella3205.htm

Bill has a great deal on one on the Terry Cain health fund pledge page over at 6moons.com

I'm happy with mine