[tvad4]

It would be helpful to know the experience those recommending EQ over tubes have in their own systems with tubes. What equipment. What tubes. System components, etc.

[95bcwh]

"What target curves will give tube sound"?

I asked this question in the Tact forum long time ago and people just told me to roll-off the high. But it didn't work. I rolled-off the high, but the music still remain sterile. When tube roll-off the high, it also gives you some kind of "air", and some seductive smoothness, which add "soul" to the music.

[dado5]

Completely disagree.  I have a little experience with tubes and have owned three different models of TacT preamps.  If tube-magic was merely tweaking the FR graph, everybody would have equalizers and nobody would have tubes.  They are somewhat of a pain, but people put up with them.  It has very little to do with frequency response and everything to do with the soul of music.

I use my TacT to dial in the frequency response.  Then, I use my SET amp to give size and shape to instruments and to let them breathe.  It brings the wood of instruments into the room instead of just the strings.  Voices are attached to physical, quavering forms.  Drumheads have amazing decays that I have not heard through all SS systems.

Tubes are fairy dust, not equalizers.

I agree completely.  That is exactly why I suggested he try to make accurate use of his EQ.

Tubes are not equalizers. Most tube products will have a linear FR from 30Hz to 20kHz. The slight rolloffs seen are on the order of 3dB at 20K which I would challenge anyone to notice on complex program material. As most aggressive, unpleasant audio phenomena are in the low treble area, EQing would be the best first step.

My personal cost no object solution would be a vinyl front feeding an all inductively loaded tube amplifier driving high efficiency speakers.

[dado5]

"What target curves will give tube sound"?

I asked this question in the Tact forum long time ago and people just told me to roll-off the high. But it didn't work. I rolled-off the high, but the music still remain sterile. When tube roll-off the high, it also gives you some kind of "air", and some seductive smoothness, which add "soul" to the music.

Yep. Rolling off  the high end, if it is severe enough, will only produce a dull sound.

Tube sound is a misnomer really. Macroscopically, tubes sound different then solid state but they also sound very different from one another. I would say the common ultra-linear 1950’s type designs have a family sound and this is what most equate with tube sound. But, IMO, this is in the output stage and transformer more than anything else and it is unlikely you will achieve this with just a tube buffer. Other tube layouts like SE or OTL sound different still. Maybe if you related what equipment you’ve heard in the tube realm, we might get a better idea of what tube sound means to you.

But again if you are just trying to make some unpleasant recordings more bearable, I honestly think you should play with the EQ you already have.

[nathanm]

Using the EQ you already have is the obvious answer.  However I would also recommend a pair of Tech21 Sans Amp Bass DI units.  This will allow you to dial in the amount of effect you want with the Blend knob.  There is also a parallel out for bypass.  That should mellow your harsh!   http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tech-21-SansAmp-Bass-Driver-DI?sku=480206

[95bcwh]

On a side note, during the RMAF I attended the audio workshop on amplifier listening/measurement. The instructor switched between a tube amp and a solid state amp and I could not even tell a difference. I then asked the instructor, "So, are you implying that when we heard differences it means the amp is not properly designed?"

The instructor answer,"Yes."

[jhm731]

Here's another no cost option for you to try with your TacT

Download GoodVibrations at:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TAUGSOA/files/Uli/

Use the soft smoothing option.

[TheChairGuy]

Hell, I think nearly every CD is harsh...not so DVD-A, however.

I find the situation is remedied by adding tubes until is tamed enough to listen to.  Then, and only then, are CD's uniformly enjoyable & listenable.  It took both a tube pre-amp and amp for me to get to that point - now, it's all good.

Not so with vinyl - with a decent setup and easygoing cartridge, SS or Tubes sound juuuuust fine. Not without flaws, but longer term listenable with far more ordinary amplification devices.

So, add tubes to your CD based system.  Or, go get some vinyl or DVD-A's to listen to once in a while to spell your ears a bit 

Sorry if this sounds trite, but that's truly been my experience of things.

[tvad4]

I think DVD-A sounds the best of the silver disc formats, but I own only two or three, and I just sold my Denon 3910 universal player. Since 99% of my music is on CD, I've decided to maximize the playback value of the redbook discs and forget about DVD-A and SACD. While I still own a reference digital player, I'm also enjoying the heck out of the Paradisea DAC that allows flexibility to add hard-drive based audio in the future if I decide to go that route.

For me, Hi Rez is fundamentally dead, although I still have the ability to play SACD and 24/96 DVDs.

[Zero One]

Please pardon me for butting in at this late juncture, I have seen this as a common issue on many threads and in my own system I have battled with similar issues.  Bear in mind that my whole system is pretty much DIYed so I can't comment on this or that brand.

My gut feeling (and this is what I have tried to implement in my system) is that the entire system up to the point of the speakers should be a high res as possible, it just seems odd to me to sacrifice the ultimate listening performance by building a system to accomodate the lowest common denominator of poor recordings.  Distortion where ever it occurs runs counter to the idea of high fidelity, so I could not bring myself to actually build it into the system.

Speakers on the other hand are very tuneable, I have been playing with all sorts of tweaks on a set of double bass (4 inch full range drivers with super tweeters)/sub system, and I have found it is quite feasable to tune for different source materials with removeable filters over tweeters, adjustable rear facing ports, reflectors on the rear pots that can be adjusuted, shelving filters, variable crossovers, L Pads, easily adjsutable sub equalizers and many other items and of course speaker placement. The point is that I get the best signal to the drivers and then adjust to suit when and if needed.

Some recordings will remain rubbish no matter what I do, but in such cases they just never get played again...end of story.

Lots of friends and family have listened to my system and all make much the same comment, the detail is incredible, and most also add they have heard things they didn't even know were there. I am not trying to blow my own trumpet, just suggest that maybe there are alternatives.  IN the end what is needed I feel is synergy and this is much easier to acheive if you DIY......though I have to be honest and say it has taken me 12 months of constant experimenting and I'd say I have a good 6 to go before I am ready to build the final casework and speakers.

On the subject of overall system harshness I found it was not solved by changing a single part of the system but rather attention to lots of little things and none of those changes were meant to decrease detail and resolution, quite the opposite...... some how in my gut I feel harshness is not the result of too much resolution and detail but rather too little in the wrong spots.

I hope this helps and of course I welcome disagreement, we all learn from it.
Thanks

[tvad4]

I believe if one has made their system as resolving as possible, and has then decided they didn't care for the sound, then it's perfectly fine to alter any link in the chain to achieve a desired sound. Hi Res or not.

Once you know the rules, then it's OK to break them.

IMO.

[zybar]

Folks,
   Can anyone suggest a way to improve the sound of harsh recordings? My current setup is as follow:

   Bolder SB3 digital out -> Aberdeen Modified Tact 2.0S -> Moscode 401HR - Salk HT3

   On good recordings, it sounded real good.. very good..like music from heaven. But on bad recordings, but it's too revealing, sounded harsh and thin at times. I was thinking of adding a little flexibility into my current system, maybe insert a tube buffer between the Tact and the Moscode when I'm in the mood of listening to some bad recordings?

   I'm even thinking of getting an NOS DAC and a tube preamp so I can run the digital out from the Tact into this NOS DAC and tube preamp before going into the Moscode 401HR.

  Any suggestion is welcome. Thanks!

  Regards
  barry 

Barry,

I don't think adding a tube buffer will be the answer, but it doesn't hurt to try as long as you can return it.  Adding more stuff into the playback chain generally isn't the best approach.

If you have recordings that are edgy, bright, thin, etc...I would play around with the TacT and find a curve that makes it sound more pleasing.  Use the parametric EQ function to try changes in real time and build a curve after you find a sound you like.  Save it in one of the presets and use it for the cd's that require it.

Having basically the same system as you, I don't have the issues you describe, but we all hear differently.   aa

What ic's and cables are you using?

George

[toobluvr]

Folks,
   Can anyone suggest a way to improve the sound of harsh recordings? .......

Having owned it for several weeks now, I sincerely believe the the Paradisea dac will help in this regard.
It has in my system, allowing thin, hard and aggressive recordings to be more listenable.
Overall, the sound it produces is very "analogue-like".  Vocals are especially natural and sweet.

Call is softening...call it embellishment...call it distortion...call it whatever you want.
I don't care what it's doing.  In my view, the objective is to make the music more pleasant and more enjoyable to listen to.  The Paradisea does just that, so I just call it good!     

I know there's been lots of chatter about this unit lately.
I'm not just jumping on the bandwagon and mouthing popular support for the current "flavor of the week".  I just call it as I see it.  This is a real solid product, and a great value.

[zybar]

Folks,
   Can anyone suggest a way to improve the sound of harsh recordings? .......

Having owned it for several weeks now, I sincerely believe the the Paradisea dac will help in this regard.
It has in my system, allowing thin, hard and aggressive recordings to be more listenable.
Overall, the sound it produces is very "analogue-like".  Vocals are especially natural and sweet.

Call is softening...call it embellishment...call it distortion...call it whatever you want.
I don't care what it's doing.  In my view, the objective is to make the music more pleasant and more enjoyable to listen to.  The Paradisea does just that, so I just call it good!     

John,

If the DAC sweetens the harsh or less pristine receordings, it must be doing the same for the better recordings...

Does it get too sweet? 

George

[toobluvr]

Folks,
   Can anyone suggest a way to improve the sound of harsh recordings? .......

Having owned it for several weeks now, I sincerely believe the the Paradisea dac will help in this regard.
It has in my system, allowing thin, hard and aggressive recordings to be more listenable.
Overall, the sound it produces is very "analogue-like".  Vocals are especially natural and sweet.

Call is softening...call it embellishment...call it distortion...call it whatever you want.
I don't care what it's doing.  In my view, the objective is to make the music more pleasant and more enjoyable to listen to.  The Paradisea does just that, so I just call it good!     

John,

If the DAC sweetens the harsh or less pristine receordings, it must be doing the same for the better recordings...

Does it get too sweet? 

George

It does indeed do similar things to all recordings, George.....so there is a definite tradeoff.

Having listened to upsampling and oversampling for so long now, initially I did get a little nagging sensation that something is missing with the Paradisea.    If you follow my other comments on this unit, you will see that I acknowledge it is not SOA in terms of detail and resolution.  But it is winning me over with its other virtues, and as I listen, I am becoming more able to overlook its shortcomings.  Perhaps there is an acclimation period after what we have become accustomed to w/r/t digital?

But you know what?  It is so natural, so smooth, so creamy, and so coherent and balanced that it allows one to relax into the music and just forget about that last nth degree of detail.  At least I'm able to make that tradeoff.  I know that others will be unable to get over that nagging feeling that something is missing. 

But the music it produces is warm and organic, and just washes over you...like waves lapping at the shoreline.  I listen to relax, and the Paradisea gives that.  This is not to say that it can't rock, cause it can.  Just that it is free of glare, edge and digititis.  Hey, I have not played in the big leagues when it comes to digital reproduction.  But I do know "natural" when I hear it.

With the Paradisea, my sense is that superlative recordings will never give their full potential as they would with a more resolving player, but I don't think it will be far off.  But less than stellar stuff will sound better with the Paradisea.  The bulk of my software is real music in the latter camp, not audiophile-fare, so it works for me.  I'm willing to make the sacrifice for the few exceptional recordings that I have.

So yes,  I'd say there is definitely some softening and sweetening going on.  But not to the point that it is bothersome...at least not to me.  But you know me, this is my taste in general:  tubes over SS....SET over push/pull....vinyl over digital...musical over hyper-resolute.  Others might have different priorites and objectives, so it is up to the individual to decide what tradeoffs are acceptable to him.

[miklorsmith]

Nice post, toober.  I wholly agree.  I would bet that the more you acclimate to NOS, the less you'll like the "more resolving", other type.  This is also true with good recordings.  Good recordings still sound better than bad ones with NOS and you'll find what painful tradeoffs that "resolution" includes the more you absorb the musical sound.

[Wayner]

It's hard to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Starting with a bad sounding recording will only end up with frustration. Live with it or don't listen to it....That's my advise.

P.S. No equipment will fix this ill. Period.

W

[toobluvr]

It's hard to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Starting with a bad sounding recording will only end up with frustration. Live with it or don't listen to it....That's my advise.

P.S. No equipment will fix this ill. Period.

W

I only partially agree....
I'm not talking about creating a 'silk purse'.
That's going from one extreme to another....horrible to great....and I agree that's impossible.

I am talking about making it less offensive, and more listenable.
And that is doable.  There is no such thing as true transparency and neutrality.  Everything leaves a footprint, and each listener chooses his poison.  Some footprints are more pleasant sounding than others.  And some footprints exacerbate problems on the recordings.

If no variation existed in the way gear sounds, and the way it handles less than pristine recordings, then there would be no used marketplace for audio gear.

[beppe61]

Folks,
Can anyone suggest a way to improve the sound of harsh recordings?
My current setup is as follow:
Bolder SB3 digital out -> Aberdeen Modified Tact 2.0S -> Moscode 401HR - Salk HT3
On good recordings, it sounded real good.. very good..like music from heaven. But on bad recordings, but it's too revealing, sounded harsh and thin at times.
...
Any suggestion is welcome. Thanks!

Regards
barry 

Have you already "tried" different ICs?  Which are your present?  Are they made out of silver perhaps ?
I understand that solid core Cu cable like Cardas can tame some harshness.
Anyway if " On good recordings, it sounded real good.. very good..like music from heaven "  well, this is very good.
Kind regards,

beppe

[lonewolfny42]

toobluvr ....
 

But the music it produces is warm and organic, and just washes over you...like waves lapping at the shoreline.  I listen to relax, and the Paradisea gives that.  This is not to say that it can't rock, cause it can.  Just that it is free of glare, edge and digititis.

Totally agree...my word is natural...its just music.