[PSP]

Hi Hugh,
As you know, I am in the late stages of building an Orion system.  I am considering the following:
  Tweeters:  55 LF   freq range = 1400Hz to 20+ Khz
  Midrange:   55 N+  freq range = 120 - 1400 Hz
  Woofers:    100N+ (43 v rails, modified for high current), freq range = 20 - 120 Hz

The question:  are the 55LF and 55N+ essentially in phase in the vicinity of 1400 Hz?  If these two amps are not very close in phase near 1400Hz, I suppose there would be a phase shift induced suckout, yes?

Of course, I would like to convert the entire system to LF, but that would be a very expensive option in one go.

Many thanks,
Peter

[AKSA]

Hi Peter,

Both amps are in phase, and neither phase inverts.  The differences between them would be minuscule, with the LF a tad faster.  However, 95% of phase shifts in the system would be attributed to the crossover processor (ASP), since these are active, bandpass filters and while they are touted as zero phase shift this is just not true.....

There would be much more phase shift in a tube amp because of the output transformers, in fact.

Cheers,

Hugh

[stvnharr]

"As you know, I am in the late stages of building an Orion system.  I am considering the following:
  Tweeters:  55 LF   freq range = 1400Hz to 20+ Khz
  Midrange:   55 N+  freq range = 120 - 1400 Hz
  Woofers:    100N+ (43 v rails, modified for high current), freq range = 20 - 120 Hz"

Peter,
Just curious, but...
Given that you have one LF, why not use it on the midrange where it can shine the most, IMO, instead of the tweeter.  Of course, easy to experiment here and find the most sound appealing option.

[PSP]

I'm about to order an LF, but that's not the point of your question.

Many thanks for your suggestion.  Of course, I will try the LF driving the Orion tweeters and midrange.  I will also try it in my bedroom system driving a set of GR-Research Paradox 3 floor standers.  With two 55N+ and two 100N+ in the house, my upgrade path and timing will depend on where I hear the most impact and how large the improvements are.

Within the Orion culture, there is a dash of "all well-designed amps sound the same driving the Orion" in the Cool-Aid we all drink.  I am skeptical, but I'll be in an excellent position to find out for myself fairly soon.

Peter

[AKSA]

Hi Peter,

Steve has a good point there;  the midrange would be best for a LF!!

"all well-designed amps sound the same driving the Orion" in the Cool-Aid we all drink.

I suspect this is because of the ASP, which tends to reduce all amps to the lowest common denominator.  It is not bad, but the presentation is a bit grey to my ears, and reflects the many ICs in the chain.  A better power supply helps with this and permits discrimination between different amps.  I believe you now have one of those!!


Cheers,

Hugh

[andyr]

Within the Orion culture, there is a dash of "all well-designed amps sound the same driving the Orion" in the Cool-Aid we all drink.  I am skeptical, but I'll be in an excellent position to find out for myself fairly soon.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion ... famous speaker designers included!  )  But just because they think something, doesn't mean it is so!  Marcus has already posted he heard an improvement when he did some "opamp rolling" and Hugh's PS will undoubtedly improve the sonics of the ASP.  Both of these points would be pooh-poohed by SL.

Better amps than that "home theatre" one which Siegfried recommends will undoubtedly make the Orions sound better - just as they do with every other speaker!

Remember too, that the LF appears to have more bass grunt than an AKSA ... so you would gain by having one on the bass drivers!  )

Regards,

Andy

[andyr]

It is not bad, but the presentation is a bit grey to my ears, and reflects the many ICs in the chain.

Hugh

Now now, Hugh.     Does that mean the opamp-based GK-1 phono stage sounds "a bit grey"?   

Regards,

Andy

Andy,  Perhaps yes, a little, but fixed with the trick power supplies on the rails.....  and besides, there's only one opamp - 'damage' is limited!!   Hugh

[PSP]

Hi Hugh,
Yes, indeedy, I do have one of your special double secret ASP power supplies and I am thrilled to have it. 

I am currently deep into woodfinishing on the Orion cabs.  Tonight and tomorrow, I will apply another couple of coats of shellac and then let the finish cure for a couple of weeks before I hand rub the finish.  In the meantime, I will build the ASP.

I have followed Philip's (PT914) lead and ordered two sets of ASP boards.  Eventually, the plan is to run one set from the GK-1 tube output for mids and tweeter and use the other set for the GK-1 sub out to drive the woofers. 

But, I don't have to do that right away, do I?  For the next few months, I will populate one set of ASP boards with totally stock SL-recommended parts, and then use the second board for A-B evaluation of various opamps, botique caps, etc.

The SL parts have very close tolerances (important for accurate realization of the XOs, driver offset compensation, etc.), while (some of) the botique caps will have better sonics in the absolute sense.  It's not obvious to me which is more important in any particular case, so I plan to experiment a bit to find out for myself.

As I've mentioned in my e-mails Hugh, my audio true love is Jens' Equilibrium system (even though it is quite large).  The problem is that I'm 60 years old and a well-done execution of the Equilibriums would take me another couple of years, assuming that I could find a builder that I can afford who will do no-compromise work and make it look beautiful.  Thus, I have gone with the Orions as an excellent, but second choice.  I'll do the best I can with them.  Maybe I can build a smaller version of the Equilibriums for my bedroom system.

The argument over actives with god-knows-how-many yucky opamps vs. "pure" passive designs with only a series cap has raged on for a long time with excellent (and poor) executions in both camps.

BTW, I've e-mailed you a LF55 order... 

Peter

[Davey]

Actually we Orion owners have Kool-Aid drinking get-togethers at different owner locations.  Most flavors on tap....I like cherry myself.  However, what usually happens is after the first five minutes the host starts playing his Orion's and we end up enjoying music the rest of the night vice drinking Kool-Aid.

We've auditioned a variety of different amplifier setups on these occasions also.  They all seem to sound great.  Which obviously is more a statement about the speakers than the amplifiers.
I guess if a person is wanting/expecting an amplifier to contribute a sound of its own to the presentation then maybe a AKSA amplifier would be suitable.  I don't know because I don't have any first-hand experience with them.

Also, Orion owners use a variety of PS setups (including batteries) for their ASP's.  They all seem to sound great also.  Which I guess is more a statement about the ASP design than the power supply.

It seems to me a person would be more likely to find a Kool-Aid drinker in this Circle than in the home of an Orion owner.  Just my opinion of course.....worth what you paid for it.

Also, to Hugh.  I'm not sure where you're getting the reference that "bandpass filters and while they are touted as zero phase shift this is just not true...."  Any knowledgeable person familiar with SL's designs or theories would/should know that zero-phase shift (or linear-phase operation) is not a design feature of the Orion or indeed any Linkwitz-Riley crossover implementation.  Any "tout"ing of such certainly didn't come from Linkwitz.

Also, there are numerous errors on your web page related to this misunderstanding....
http://www.aksaonline.com/papers_2.html
These should be corrected.

Cheers,

Davey.....Orion own....errr Kool-Aid drinker.

[AKSA]

Hi Davey,

Thank you for your post.

I am an advocate of the Orion, once had a testimony on Seigfried's front page, and never did even hint that the product was 'touted' as zero phase shift.

I will correct my web page, thank you for pointing out the error.

Anyway, most Orion owners are too busy listening to music to bother with online forums.   

You made this comment back in September, can it be true???

Cheers,

Hugh

[PSP]

Good morning,
I just logged on to the Orion User's Group, and was greeted by:

Critical Information

   
You have been banned from this forum.
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information.

 
I guess I will add "humorless" to "cool-aid drinking". 

Funny group, for being humorless, that is...   

Well, I'm sure that I will enjoy the Orions, and I will keep you guys up to date on all my subversive activities.

Peter

[DSK]

Apparently the Thought Police have eyes everywhere! And rather thin skin. 

[Davey]

Anyway, most Orion owners are too busy listening to music to bother with online forums.   

You made this comment back in September, can it be true???

Cheers,

Hugh

Sure it's true.  Why do you think I post so infrequently on many online forums? 

To tell you the truth, I had lost much of my interest in online forums irrespective of the Orion/Linkwitz experience.....and even before I was acquainted with Siegfried.  They are generally full of a lot of misinformation, shills, agendas, veiled commercialism, etc.  I find the AC forum particularly disappointing in this regard.  Even the Orion Users Group has its share of questionable content, but I guess this is the nature of things when audiophile ego's are involved.

Anyways, thank you for correcting the information on your web page.

PSP,

If you were indeed banned it must have been for a good reason.  And I believe you would be the first person banned from the OUG. 
I think moderating a forum has been a good experience for Mac. 

Cheers,

Davey.

[PSP]

Hi Davey,
This will by my last post on the subject.

I am not making this up, I was banned.  You can ask around at OUG and find out for yourself.

The only recent post that could--I hope--be regarded as controversial appears above, in this thread, and there really isn't anything there that would be controversial, except to those--as we can see--who really did drink the cool-aid and seem to have thin skins.  A few months back, Hugh's power supply came under attack on OUG (the thread has since been removed), and at that point I posted something to the effect of "let's wait and see how the power supply sounds, then you can call it silly", and that might have gotten me on double secret probation.  That, combined with yesterday's sins, were apparently enough to get me cast into the outer darkness. 

Enough already... I have work to do and music to enjoy.  I wish that all of you, all of us, all of mankind could have the kind of music in their homes that I have in mine.  With the Orion, it will only get better.  Peace.

edit:  I would like to suggest that we all drop the discussion at this point.  The odds that we can change anyone's mind here is nil and--in any event--not relevant to our universal goal of making our listening experience more fulfilling.  Some choose different paths than others, and this manifestation of biodiversity will (eventually) push the development envelope of home audio in a positive direction.   

Take care,
Peter

This is regrettable.  Peter, I am sorry, this is silly and unnecessary.  Seeing you as disruptive makes me laugh out loud.  I have locked this thread - Hugh