[ebag4]

Hi Guys, I am considering dragging my old Technics SL-5 (close and play) out of the closet, but I will need to get a preamp to get it up and running ( have only heard it through a Denon and a Technics reciever previously).  It currently has an old AT MM cartridge if I remember correctly.  I am wanting to pick up the best preamp I can for $125.- $150. or so.  Used and DIY are OK.  I have been considering building a Bugle and powering it with SLA batts.  The other option I have considered is a NAD PP-2.  Do any of you have an opinion as to which of these options would be better?  Other options? I will be feeding a self modded SI T-amp w/Jensen PIOs which power a set of B200s in OB, I also have a set of Augies being fed from a plate amp.  I will probably pick up a Promitheus TVC for the volume control duties and I am currently building a 41hz Amp4 that will take over the amplification duties from the SI T-amp (assuming I can get it to work  ).

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Ed

[gooberdude]

I owned the PP-2 for a while, it sucked bigtime compared to the channel islands vpp-1 i use now.
You might be able to get one used for the $.   

I hear over and over that the Bugle is a hit though.   its gotta be better than the PP-2 plus its battery powered.  a battery powered phono pre + TVC would be cool...

A few years back i wanted to make cd's of my lp's.  Not knowing anything about audio at the time, i went to Guitar Center and bought a $40 Rolls phono preamp - 15 minutes after unwrapping it and hearing all the hushhhhhhhhhhhhhh & distortion i marched it back to the store.   Next i went to a Sat Audio Exchange & picked up the PP-2 for $120.   The PP-2 was much better, but the nasty noise floor hushhhhhhhhhhhhh  was still there, just to a lesser degree.   however the bass was much better.  the NAD went back after a few days.   

If cost & performance were linear (based on the Rolls & PP-2), the VPP-1 should cost $500 more than the PP-2. 

There are host of other preamps around $200 too, Clearaudio's sounded great on a friends MMF-5.

A good phono pre will let you appreciate the effort of reviving your table more...


GD

[robert1325]

haven't tried it, but the cambridge 640P is suposed to be very good.

I have had my jolida jd 9 for a week now and it's great!  ( over your budget )

[Psychicanimal]

I will be feeding a self modded SI T-amp w/Jensen PIOs which power a set of B200s in OB, I also have a set of Augies being fed from a plate amp.  I will probably pick up a Promitheus TVC for the volume control duties and I am currently building a 41hz Amp4 that will take over the amplification duties from the SI T-amp

Any thoughts?

Yeah, here's my thought:  you need to translate what you said!

[ebag4]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Psychicanimal, this ones for you 

Here you go:

(From the phono preamp) I will be feeding a self modded SI T-amp w/Jensen PIOs ( aka amplifier with decent capacitors) which power a set of B200s in OB (which drive my speakers, a pair of Visaton B200 drivers in an open baffle configuration), I also have a set of Augies (15" drivers for the bass frequencies) being fed from a plate amp (a separate amplifier not associated with the other drivers) .  I will probably pick up a Promitheus TVC for the volume control duties ( I will be purchasing a passive preamp from Promitheus Audio that uses transformers for volume control and will handle input switching duties) and I am currently building a 41hz Amp4 that will take over the amplification duties from the SI T-amp (I am putting together another T-amp that is sold by 41hz.com and if I can get it to work properly it will replace the aforementioned SI T-amp and power my Visaton B200 drivers)

Any thoughts?

Thanks guys,
Ed

[Psychicanimal]

Well, you have a system now but that you plan to change, an integrated with some plate amp for separate woofs.  Plan to have a transformer based passive preamp and fed into another power amp.  You don't state whether your amp with better capacitors is a power or integrated, but here're my thoughts:

My system is passive pre based (Channel Islands), but I use a Modwright modded Marchand X9 Deluxe electronic x-over instead to do the constant output impedance driving thing.  Four monoblocks do the trick: two Marantz Ma-5 Esotec 30W class A, two Kenwood L-07M 125W A/B for the woofs.

Dealing with power delivery/noise control precedes anything else you might want to do with your system, especially choosing a phono stage.  You need to hear things right--clean and quiet.

Following power/noise goes room acoustics, then vibration control.

Although I have nothing personal against tubes (other than the majority of such equipment suffering from colorations-good or otherwise) I don't think they belong in the initial gain stage of a phono preamp.  The Channel Islands is a great choice and you can later upgrade buying the outboard power supply.  I bought a demo Monolithic PS-1 and then later on found used the matching
dual mono power supply.  Patience is a virtue.

Cable matters.

[ebag4]

Psychianimal, thank you for that detailed response.  You are right, it is not good to make so many changes at once, granted.  With regard to the amplifiers, both my current and future amps are power amps, they are also both T-amps so there should be a "family" sound to them.  The TVC that will be thrown into the works is really the unknown for me.

With regard to the phono preamp, my feeling was that there are probably not that many "good" choices out there given my preamp budget, so what I am looking for are recommendations at that price point that I might try.  I will not get to hear any in my system until I purchase them so I figure I would start based on recommendations from this circle.

Thanks again.
Ed

[SET Man]

Hey!

   Ed, I see you want to get back in the groove eh?

    As for your question about phono pre. I don't have expreince with standalone phono-pre. I've been using the built in tubed phono stage in my Audio Note M1.

   Anyway, since you are just getting back in to vinyl. Picking up a used Phono-pre is not a bad idea. I've seen NAD PP-2 for as low as $100 on Agon. But I'm pretty sure later on after you are hooked on vinyl, you will be looking to upgrade soon.

    But! It seem that you are also a DIYer. Although I don't have any expriecne with the Hagerman Bugle Phono. But still as a DIYer I would check it out... especially if you can power it with SLA battery.

   Well, I just finished a small DAC kit and I did not want to go through the process of building it a PSU So, I since it take 12V DC I just went for two 7Ah 12V SLA batteries. And the sound is great... much better then the cheap wall adapter I was using

    So, with that. A battery Bugle have a potential to be very good and quieter than one that plug-in to the wall. Also you could fine tuning the sound by changing those caps... if there is enough room tough

    But.... can the Bugle run on 12V? I see that they take two 9V batteries. Anyway have fun and keep us posted.

Take care,
Buddy

[ebag4]

Hi Buddy,
Haha, I guess someone had to say it .  I am leaning towards the Bugle, the price is right, the constuction time should be short and I like the idea of using SLAs for a quiet background.  I believe I will need 2 SLAs to make it operate properly, obviously I need to look into it further.

Thanks,
Ed

[Psychicanimal]

With regard to the phono preamp, my feeling was that there are probably not that many "good" choices out there given my preamp budget,

I'm glad to help, but I disagree with your statement.  I understand you have not heard any units, so I'm going to stress that Channel Islands offers performance that goes well beyond its price point.  It also has a clear upgrade path where you can start with the basic unit, then get the outboard power supply, then a good, wide bandwith, neutral power cord (like the Absolute MKII) and an upgraded DC power cable.

Since you are concerned with noise (and should be) I will show you a cheap way to have over one thousand dollar's worth of musically benign power filtration for less than one hundred:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4011.0

Power filtration is my specialty and in my system the most expensive part (retail amount: around $7K).

Silence has to be experienced like this guy's testimonial.  That's why I do not recomment tubes in the primary gain phono amplification.  Even with batteries the noise floor will be compromised.

If you still insist on swinging the soldering gun and using batteries, a punchy, dynamic high output moving magnet cartridge becomes your best match.  For your budget and tonearm the Stanton 681EEE would be my pick and the Shure M97 second choice.

[blakep]

Skip the well known commercial products in that price range. If you have the skills to build, based on what I've read the Bugle would probably be a very good choice. Another alternative for $170 would be the DB Systems MM phono pre. I've owned both the MM and MC version of this pre, which is sold direct by the manufacturer and is reviewed (the MC version) here:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/weaver10.htm

If you order, ask David Hadaway to install a basic subsonic filter (he charges an extra $5 on top of the $165 price for the MM version for this). I've owned the original Project Phono Box, which was supposed to walk all over the NAD PP1 (granted, everyone's made improvements and renamed their stages), and the DB Systems is night and day better than the Project. More neutral, accurate, smoother, more transparent in terms of both detail/information and a sense of space (both width and depth of soundstage). Comparatively, the budget stages sound like you are listening through a big thick blanket compared to the DB stage (either Magnet or MC). I have the MM version in a system I put together for my 13 year old son. I was using the MC stage in my system (with a Michell Gyrodec, Premiere FT-3 and Denon 103R) very recently when I upgraded to a $900 phono stage (which has the ability for me to run completely balanced from table to amplifier) and the DB, although lacking in refinement and missing some info compared to the more expensive stage, is remarkably good for the money. You are buying direct from the manufacturer (as you are with the Bugle) and eliminating layers of expense (to you) and maximizing performance.

Don't be afraid to go off the beaten path. I would expect the Bugle, and I know the DB Systems, will be capable of showing what an improved front end will do for you should you end up improving your table, arm, cartridge combination.

[SET Man]

...I have the MM version in a system I put together for my 13 year old son.

Hey!

     Man! Your son is a pretty cool kid 13 and already spinning vinyl. I bet he like to show his friends his system with the turntable spinning

Take care,
Buddy

[blakep]

Yeah, his friends think his system is pretty wild. Although he's not into it as much as me (he may as he gets a bit older), he definitely likes the sound of vinyl. I put together a system for him consisting of a really nice condition Pioneer PL-12D that I bought at a garage sale for $5 and added an AT 120E to it along with the DB MM phono preamp. Bought some used JPW P1's that had just had the surrounds redone, an older Audiolab 8000A that I had upgraded from (unfortunately the MM was fried in the Audiolab, hence the need for the new phono preamp), plus I had an extra very good line conditioner kicking around. Man, he's got a better system than I had until I was into my late 20's, not that he realizes it.

He's into the retro thing: Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, AC/DC, Judas Priest, he bought a Rainbow album at a record show that we went to recently. Picked up a mint copy of Whitesnake for him at the thrift/charity shop the other day for 50 cents. He came home a few days ago and told me that one of his friends resurrected an old turntable in the house and was going to start spinning some vinyl after hearing what he had. I've created a monster. A good monster, though: he's off the street, enjoying music and it's a social thing for him as well.

[Folsom]

The Bugle is great. I made my own and love it. In no way do I feel like it is bottle necking anything. I am fairly certain the rest of my stuff is the bottle neck in comparrison.

[Imperial]

I agree with the assessment of Nad PP2, used to own one.
It was cheap, but ruined the experience from my rig at the time.
Put some ekstra money in the the phono. It pays back many many times!!!

Imperial