Speakers to big for my room?

robert1325 · « **on:** 12 Nov 2006, 06:56 pm »

Hi ,

I would like to ask some opinions or advice, about my current speakers.
B&W dm 603 s3 : http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20DM603%20S3

I am using these in a 3 x3 m. room, they are driven by a 2x100 watt SS chinese amplifier.
http://www.ornec.com/product/EU/G&W_TW-2006X_integrated_amplifier/
Don't let the price fool you, it was a great upgrade from my old cambridge audio 640A.

I really like the signature of these speakers (after auditioning Jmlabs 716,elac, quad 22l , epos m5, paradigm refence 60) But in my room the bass is boomy ( this got much better after my amp upgrade) and the volume needs to be very high to get good speed and details ( openess) there's also some kind of boxxiness in the midrange

Would it be better to get some smaller speakers , bookshelves instead? they are about 2 feet from the wall ( further is not possible) and the left speaker is near a side wall, left sounds louder.

Some comments would be greatly appreciated. I'm using good cables (speltz anti-cables) and my source is a bolder modded squeezebox. My music taste is all over the place ( jazz, indie rock, lounge, funk.......... ) And I use the system for my movies to ( quite a film buff)

As there is not much space, I have to confess I don't like big bass traps in my room.

Thank you

PS
Sorry for my grammar, I'm dutch

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 01:21 am »

Hey Robert,

As my audio system has always been in a small room (all a bit larger than your 3 x 3m room you mention), I have ALWAYS had (primarily bass) integration problems with any floorstanding speaker. The worst has been the one with the lowest bass performance....a Vandersteen 1c that is fairly flat to 37 hertz. When I sold it, I delivered it to the fella' that bought it about 30 miles away, and set it up in his (larger) room - it never sounded better than that day in his LARGER room

I kept trying, tho...I bought some nice Camber floorstanders flat to 42hz....with the same results - boomy bass. My wife and I like wood floors, and this surely does not help things, but no matter how many acoustic aids I install, the same conclusion is reached - most floorstanders need a lot of room to operate correctly. When I replaced the Camber's with quad 11L's (probably not much bass output at all below 60hz), it sounded great.

I own the smallest Magnepan speakers, the MMG's (flat to 50hz). They have been totally modded to the hilt. And tho they are the smallest in the line, they too, are (just slightly I feel) too large for my room.

I have some very small (6.5" woofer) Linaeum floorstanding speakers, flat to probably no better than 55hz, and they sound fine (terrific, even) in my 12 x 15 x 8-12' room. When I tried to pair them with a subwoofer - it was again horrendous.

Lesson learned - if you have a small room, don't buy more speaker than you need. You can bend acoustical physics a little with traps, etc, but you can't undo it unless you move to another room. Flat to 55-60hz is probably all that you can sustain well in your particular room....finding a good bookshelf speaker and mounting on a sturdy stand will probably bring you more pleasure than you can believe.

You're B & W extends cleanly to 44hz....only if you are in a room sufficiently sized for it. I think many audiophiles get lusty for floorstanders and buy more than they need, invest in all kinds of acoustic aids afterwards...when in fact what they need is a bigger room, primarily. I know I have - and now learned my lesson well. You're not missing THAT much by not having that last 30-40 hz.....not as many instruments as you think extend that far down....you wil still swing to the best with good bookshelves or less bass intensive floorstanders (for your size room, based on my experience, I'd stick with bookshelves only)

It's likely not your equipment, bass traps (even if you could stand looking at them or fit them in) will help only a bit. Well recorded DVD's tend to have more low frequency performance than many CD's (greater storage) and it is with DVD's that you probably have the most boominess. If you like your home, your room, don't fight it....just get a great bookshelf and enjoy your music and movies.

Good luck

Scott F. · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 02:13 am »

Hi Robert,

John (The Chair Guy) is right. You've probably got too much speaker for your room. Heres a possible solution. Take some 5cm mattress foam and cut several piece about 10cm long and wide enough so they will wedge themselves into your speaker ports. Make sure they fit tightly so they don't get sucked into the cabinet.

Start with one piece per speaker. See it that helps tame the bass without causing too many anomalies. If that works but the bass is still boomy, double up the foam and fill the port completely. Doing this will raise the tuning frequency of your speakers and should help.

If that doesn't work, then you may have no choice but to look for new speakers. Again, John is right. Bookshelves are what you should be looking for. I too have a 3m x 3m room that I use the Odyssey Audio Epiphony's. Even though the room is small, these little speakers sound marvelous in it. I use a few well placed room treatments and also mattress foam for the speaker ports to help control the bass on certain recordings.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 02:21 am »

Quote

the volume needs to be very high to get good speed and details ( openess) there's also some kind of boxxiness in the midrange

I don't know if we might attribute that to something other than room acoustics. It sounds like it to me.

Quote

Start with one piece per speaker. See it that helps tame the bass without causing too many anomalies. If that works but the bass is still boomy, double up the foam and fill the port completely. Doing this will raise the tuning frequency of your speakers and should help.

I would start with that as well, but seriously consider some room treatment as well. ( the dimensions of his room are a little too square. )

But I still think that he might have problems other than room related.

Cheers

robert1325 · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 07:45 am »

Hi, thank you for all the clear and long (chair guy) answers

I might try to do something with my room, but I don't think it will solve all of my problems. The B&W's come with foam plugs for the ports, It does solve some problems but the midrange gets muffled.

I'll probably go the bookshelve route. There's a lot of choice out there, should I stick with bookshelves that go down to 50 -60 hz or am I safe to get some 40-50 hz speakers?

Thanks again and enjoy your stereo

ZooDog · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 03:46 pm »

You might want to try using a free downloadable program like ETF or Room Eq Wizard (available at hometheatershack.com) to try and measure your room so you can see exactly where the problem lies. If your room has a big bass peak at 60hz then you will still have a problem even if you use a bookshelf speaker.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 04:04 pm »

Robert,

Get something with a highly resolving tweeter (I find ribbons typically the best, if well integrated with the low frequency unit) and I wouldn't worry much about finding a bookshelf that'll blow you outta' the room. If truly a bookshelf, say half-a-meter tall or perhaps a bit more, it's highly unlikely (ported or not) that they will have significant low frequency output below 50hz. Bass is mostly (not solely, but mostly) about volume, and a true bookshelf just doesn't have it.

You've got a ton of great bookshelf manufacturers in Europe (UK and continent) specifically because your average size home is smaller than the US (or, likely, Canada and Australia).

Deadening your room will surely help any speaker you have if it's too lively, but I think the best tweek you will find is that of moving to more correctly sized speakers. You'll just enjoy the music - you won't notice much is missing unless your buddy puts some big honkin' speakers in his big room, or you hear something at a dealers (large-ish) showroom. But, for your 3 x 3m space, you need smaller and high quality, rather than bigger/taller/more output/greater bass, etc.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 04:16 pm »

Have you tried corner-loading the room? This will change the sound, sometimes for the better. We did this with my buddy's system a couple of years ago and it's still that way now.

Bass will load differently in the room, which might be better. Also, if speakers are close to walls, near-wall reflections will be directed away from the listener's ear.

I wouldn't be shocked if a combination of Scott's tip and changing room orientation went a long way toward curing the room's ills.

robert1325 · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 04:22 pm »

I did a frequency sweep :

Just to give you an idea, the top one is my room.

I'll think about bookshelves, the paradigm reference sounded very good when I auditioned them with my old cambridge gear. There are some nice chinese speakers with ribbons to.

Haven't tried corner-loading ( with what? ) There's no real space for those things in the corners of my room...
The B&W's came with foam plug for the bass ports, it muffled the midrange.

Thanks

Robert

That DRC program is very complicated, don't think I will manage it...

miklorsmith · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 04:33 pm »

Corner load - meaning rotating everything 45 degrees. Typical setup:

______________ Front wall

__ __ Speakers

x listening seat

____________ Corner loaded:
| /
|
|
| / x
|
|

DARTH AUDIO · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 04:34 pm »

Robert, I had the same problem you have. I moved from a dedicated (25'x17') room to a small condo living room. I'm using Von Schweikert VR4-JR's. The bass issues were the problem. I had a dealer set up a Rives PARC and within one hour he had a check in his hand. It's amazing how much inner detail is missing due bass distortion. It's not cheap, but it's well worth it in my system. It also helps with my movies and concerts from my DVD player. Star Wars this weekend was simply AMAZING!!

robert1325 · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Nov 2006, 10:24 pm »

I'm considering these :

Aurum cantus leisure 2 SE

I can get them from china for 600 euro ( 750 dollars) , Hopefully I can sell my B&W dm603 s3's and cover the costs.

What do you think? the ribbons are highly regarded!

Robert

BikeWNC · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 Nov 2006, 09:09 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 13 Nov 2006, 04:33 pm

Corner load - meaning rotating everything 45 degrees. Typical setup:

______________ Front wall

__ __ Speakers

x listening seat

____________ Corner loaded:
| /
|
|
| / x
|
|

I've tried this type of setup before. While it might solve some problems it seems to create others. For one the soundstage tends to collapse to a ball in the center. It is very difficult to tell where anything is originating from within the soundstage.

Perhaps if the speakers were moved down each sidewall so that they faced the listener head on, or maybe just a little toe out from that.

____________
l/ -- --
l _
ll
l
l l x
ll

Fill the corner with a bass trap to the ceiling and put traps on the wall behind the speakers. More bass traps in the corners. See how that works.

Andy

Imperial · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Dec 2006, 07:06 am »

Quote from: robert1325 on 12 Nov 2006, 06:56 pm

Hi ,

I would like to ask some opinions or advice, about my current speakers.
B&W dm 603 s3 :
I am using these in a 3 x3 m. room

Try elevating your speakers. say 5-10cm up, try even a lot higher.
Also to dry out the bass, I have noted that one can place speakers on soft pads.
An old mattress of foam is good for this. Make some small blocks of the foam. They should depress 1/3 when loaded. Or use say Holfipads. Being Dutch you most likely know what that is.

It is also possible to construct a "speaker cradle" of whatever.
What you do now is to place yer foamblock at the deadfront of the cabinet, underneath (like a frontset spike) and at the very top on the backside of the cabinet, the speaker should lean back a couple of degrees.

Plugging the bassport is also a good think as mentioned up there.

Imperial

Imperial · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Dec 2006, 08:04 am »

Quote from: robert1325 on 13 Nov 2006, 10:24 pm

I'm considering:

Aurum cantus leisure 2 SE
What do you think?
Robert

My personal opinion?
I think you should keep looking.

Maybe look at these? http://www.hear.nl/2dehands/classifieds_det.php?id=1948
or maybe these? http://www.hear.nl/2dehands/classifieds_det.php?id=1559

Dynaudio Audience 52SE is also a good choice, its a very capable speaker!
The Dynaudio Focus 140 likewise.
Imperial

robert1325 · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Dec 2006, 05:19 pm »

Just wanted to tell you about my new speakers :

They are chinese made Blaudio pastoral speakers with dynaudio drivers. Go down to 70hz

and don't have a LF network ( that's what the manual says) They are extremely transparant and neutral, they let me hear all the faults of my solid state amplifier ( bit to much high, to little mid) and sound much , much better with my dads 300B PP monoblocks. Compared to my dad's B&W 801 s2's they sound faster and reveal more details. ( It's more like you can touch the instruments)

I can listen to all my music on them, except rap music ( need a subwoofer ) , I'm going to get a tube amp soon...

Oh yeah , they where only 400 dollars incl. shipping from China ( got them from coemaudio) ,
A huge bargain!!!!!!!!

Robert

Daygloworange · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Dec 2006, 05:27 pm »

Those look just like the Totem Model 1's. They use the Dynaudio woofer as well. The tweeter looks very similar to the Totem as well.

The Model 1's have a bump in the mid range I didn't like. The highs were too hot. They put out a lot of low end for a tiny speaker, but boomy and uncontrolled. Imaging was not good at all. I did not like the speaker whatsover. I was a little disapointed, I liked their Acoustic model though, but it's been a while since I heard that.

Cheers

robert1325 · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Dec 2006, 05:33 pm »

Haven't seen or listened to the totem model one's... The highs are very smooth when paired with my dads tube amp ... They way you describe the model 1's is like how my previous B&W dm603s3's sounded .. These are the opposite

Totem model 1:

Frequency response: 50Hz-20kHz ±3dB. Sensitivity: 87dB/W/m (2.83V),

Blaudio pastoral

Frequency response: 70Hz-22kHzz Sensitivity: 90db (2.83v ) / 8ohms

Daygloworange · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 Dec 2006, 05:43 pm »

I didn't think they were even 87db efficient. And they are a 4ohm speaker as well. Kinda strange for a MT configuration. These were the original Model 1's from 1990, not the Model 1 Signature's that are out now. I haven't heard those. Nor am I even curious, honestly.

Cheers

robert1325 · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 Dec 2006, 05:56 pm »

I wouldn't reading that message and their pricetag in mind !