[john1970]

Did anyone read the Stereophile review of the Zanden CD transport and DAC?  At $40000 it is billed as the World's Most Expensive CD Player.  What amazed me during the review was the terrible frequency response of the combination with both low frequency and high frequency roll-offs.

-3 dB at 65 Hz
-9 dB at 24 Hz

IMO Stereophile states it best by saying "This is simply poor engineering".  What is the point of purchasing large (and expensive) floorstanding tower speakers with flat bass responses down to 20 Hz if the source response is not flat?

I find it absolutely shocking that a CD player costing 100x less can measure substantially better. 


Best,

John

[G Georgopoulos]

Hi john

the price may be related to other things of the cd player
true freq response may not be the ideal but engineering
has many sides to it, some cars also have huge variations
in price even if engines may appear to be the same number

there is no such thing as perfect and the price is certainly
no indicator of that just indicator of quality and profit

George

[john1970]

I agree the CD player is built like tank with stainless steel used through out in a four  box combo.  IMO the build-quality does not make up for the poor frequency response curves.  In theory you could make the chassis from sterling sliver and charge $200000 for the equipment, but this would not improve the sound.

John

[chadh]

I'm sorry if this question is obtuse, but how does one measure the frequency response of a source component?  Do you just measure speaker output?  If this is the case, how do I know that any measured signal loss is the "fault" of the source component, the electronics or the speakers?  Or perhaps some weird interaction between them (impedence mismatch or something like that)?

Chad

[Steve Eddy]

I find it absolutely shocking that a CD player costing 100x less can measure substantially better.

If you read the Manufacturer's Comments on page 144, you'll find that the poor measurements were due to the review unit having been miswired, which resulted in excess current flowing through an intestage transformer, which would certainly explain the poor low frequency response.

I've never ceased to be amazed at companies offering five figure products who can't manage basic quality control even for a review sample.

se

[Steve Eddy]

I'm sorry if this question is obtuse, but how does one measure the frequency response of a source component?  Do you just measure speaker output?  If this is the case, how do I know that any measured signal loss is the "fault" of the source component, the electronics or the speakers?  Or perhaps some weird interaction between them (impedence mismatch or something like that)?

The frequency response of a source component is measured at its output. This can be done either open circuit, i.e. no load, or with a specified load impedance. John measured the frequency response of the Zanden into a 100k ohm load.

And as stated above, the poor frequency response measurement was due to the unit being miswired.

se

[chadh]

I'm sorry if this question is obtuse, but how does one measure the frequency response of a source component?  Do you just measure speaker output?  If this is the case, how do I know that any measured signal loss is the "fault" of the source component, the electronics or the speakers?  Or perhaps some weird interaction between them (impedence mismatch or something like that)?

The frequency response of a source component is measured at its output. This can be done either open circuit, i.e. no load, or with a specified load impedance. John measured the frequency response of the Zanden into a 100k ohm load.

And as stated above, the poor frequency response measurement was due to the unit being miswired.

se

Thanks for the explanation.

Chad

[john1970]

Steve,

Thanks for the explanation..I did not read the manufacturer's comment 

Still I agree with your opinion that basic QC being ignored on a $40K product is unbelievable.

Best,

John

[95bcwh]

Having been to the RMAF recently, listening to gears cost between $500 to $500,000, I must confess that I was not able to find  good correlation between price and sound quality

[Bob Reynolds]

If you read the Manufacturer's Comments on page 144, you'll find that the poor measurements were due to the review unit having been miswired, which resulted in excess current flowing through an intestage transformer, which would certainly explain the poor low frequency response.

We'll have to wait for JA's follow-up to see if there is any objective improvement in the next sample. And we'll never know whether this was a QA problem or intended design. The really interesting thing about the review was the subjective component -- Mikey pretty much loved it (as he did that $350K tube amp that measured so poorly) and JA, after measuring it, thought it wasn't bad in the mid range (where it did measure well).

I've never ceased to be amazed at companies offering five figure products who can't manage basic quality control even for a review sample.

That's why I question that it's really a QA problem. Regardless of how much we hate to admit it, I think the majority of us are influenced by price. With the majority of audio magazines and e-zines being purely subjective, JA's measurements are the saving grace in high-end audio at this point in time.

[G Georgopoulos]

$500,000 for audio equipment, unreal!!!,as long as there are buyers out there who are willing to buy even at that price, i see no problem with that, whats important though is all buyers should be aware that a market like this exist to serve people who can affort these prices it is nothing unusual we have art,cars selling for millions and affortable prices at the same time, which market you choose will depend on your financial state of afairs

George

[amplifierguru]

Hi George,

Unlike you I take issue with such excess on many levels. That it appears poor value considering QC vagaries compounds this concern.

Cheers,
Greg

[Jon L]

So if Mike Fremer didn't work for 'phile and was just a customer, he would be perfectly happy listening to this "defective" Zanden until Kingdom Come, believing he has the best $40K CDP in the world.   

The few reviewers who have praised the Zanden also tend to be SET die-hards, many also using eh, "unconventional" speakers.  I doubt 3-9 dB variations would go noticed anyway 

[john1970]

Bob,

I aboslutely agree with you that JA's measurements are the saving grace in hifi.  Without them it would be impossible to judge a component.   aa

Thanks,

John

[2bigears]

SUCKER BORN EVERY MINUTE------MORE MONEY THAN BRAINS----- some people simple have too much money.

[dado5]

Having been to the RMAF recently, listening to gears cost between $500 to $500,000, I must confess that I was not able to find  good correlation between price and sound quality

I really never have found a correlation.

Almost all uberspeakers sound poor to my ears - Wilson, Pipedreams, Coincedent, Ininity, B&W - just nothing there for me.   Vandersteen and Quad are the only notable exceptions in the over $4 large market.

Solid state stuff is nearly a wash as very few items at any price better the old Creek 4330. 

Tube's are all over the map with gems and gravel at all asking prices.

CDPs have probably the smallest variance in audio quality - I've heard expensive players I liked, but the improvement in sound over well designed cheap units like those by Sony, NAD and Rotel is always way out of proportion to the price difference.

Turntables and cartridges seem to be the only gear that follow a roughly linear more money=better sound curve. While the best I've heard was not the most expensive I've yet to experience a high priced combo that sounded bad, unlike the case with speakers.

That's been my experience for what it's worth.

[Steve Eddy]

We'll have to wait for JA's follow-up to see if there is any objective improvement in the next sample. And we'll never know whether this was a QA problem or intended design.

True.

The really interesting thing about the review was the subjective component -- Mikey pretty much loved it (as he did that $350K tube amp that measured so poorly) and JA, after measuring it, thought it wasn't bad in the mid range (where it did measure well).

Yes.

John began doing measurements in the hope that some correlation might emerge between objective measurement and subjective results. But so far I've seen no correlations at all. Whether it's a Halcro amplifier with a very complex solid state circuit, gobs of negative feedback, and virtually perfect measurements or a Cary amplifier with a very simple tube circuit, virtually no negative feedback and measurements that are so bad John considers it "broken," they can both receive very positive subjective reviews.

That's why I question that it's really a QA problem.

I dunno. I am aware of instances where review samples did indeed have QA problems.

Regardless of how much we hate to admit it, I think the majority of us are influenced by price.

Don't know whether or not it's the majority, but certainly price does have an influence. Sort of like the Smucker's ads. You know, "With a name like Smucker's, it's gotta be good!" With a five figure pricetag, it's gotta be good!

With the majority of audio magazines and e-zines being purely subjective, JA's measurements are the saving grace in high-end audio at this point in time.

Not sure what exactly it's saving. I mean, if at the end of the day you like the sound, what's to argue?

se

[PaulFolbrecht]

The few reviewers who have praised the Zanden also tend to be SET die-hards, many also using eh, "unconventional" speakers.  I doubt 3-9 dB variations would go noticed anyway 

Dude, that was below the belt.    No SET worth it's salt as frequency response anywhere near that awful.  The ones I listen to are flat to 20Hz and nothing else should be acceptable in an amplifier's frequency response.  (It's all in the iron with SETs.  Cheap trannies means no extension.)

Regarding the topic at hand, this type of measurement in ANY source component is beyond ridiculous.  There is damn near nobody who would't notice -3dB at 65Hz unless they were EQing it out - or the room was compensating.  (After all, room acoustics can affect bass response to a FAR greater level than 3dB, and 65Hz is real close to that 71Hz 8' ceiling reinforcement.)

A faulty unit, but still, Zanden should indeed be embarrassed to the hilt for letting any such component out their doors with the prices they are charging.

[Jon L]

The few reviewers who have praised the Zanden also tend to be SET die-hards, many also using eh, "unconventional" speakers.  I doubt 3-9 dB variations would go noticed anyway 

Dude, that was below the belt.    No SET worth it's salt as frequency response anywhere near that awful.  The ones I listen to are flat to 20Hz and nothing else should be acceptable in an amplifier's frequency response.  (It's all in the iron with SETs.  Cheap trannies means no extension.)

Nah, we all know a few dB's variation here and there really doesn't have much effect on our enjoyment of music through SET amp  I'm using a single-ended amp right now BTW..

As far as bass rolloffs, I see a trend toward very unconventional high-efficiency bass solutions to match the low-power SET amps.  Be it massive woofers with included massive SS bass amp, or extension-limited bass horns with some kind of EQ on the low-end, or some quasi-mix of many desings, I really believe 3 dB variation at 65Hz can EASILY be masked by these speaker/room interactions.  In fact, if you have a 10-12dB room hump there, the -3dB may actually may sound better

[shep]

I'm coming in at the end of this thread but here goes anyway: I kind of find such prices obscene and in really bad taste, to say nothing of supremely self-indulgent. Of course I have dreamed of the "what if" scenario;
what if I could buy whatever I wanted? But with a tiny bit of maturity and experience, isn't it more fun and fitting of the times we live in to seek out gear that sounds great, doesn't cost the money that would feed a good size villiage in Africa for a decade, and helps keep the small guys who do all the interesting creative
work in business.