TacT, Altmann No Talkee

miklorsmith · « **on:** 9 Nov 2006, 05:28 pm »

Big frustration - I got an Altmann DAC to take the 192 khz output from my TacT 2.2XP. At louder volumes the sound is fantastic. I love the Altmann - with room correction, SET vibrance, and 20 hz extension, the icing now has a cherry on top. There's always a "but".

At quieter volumes, the thing is noisy. It's related to the digital volume control/output level - it makes the same noise run direct out of my battery-powered squeezebox when I use the digital volume control.

I've gone around for a few days with Charles racking his brain. He's been very helpful but we have not identified the cause.

1) Both the TacT and Squeezebox have 24-bit outputs, while the Altmann is 16 bits
2) The noise is the same with Toslink or RCA
3) It sounds great with the volume level up, except for quiet passages of songs
4) I'm using a different 12 volt battery than Charles has used, though he says this is irrelevant.
5) TacT says the 2.2XP is compatible with 16-bit outboard DACs
6) I have used an Ack! 2.0 and battery powered Monica-2 on this systejm, both 16-bit, with no noise issues
7) Charles' thought is the 24-bit signal is being truncated somehow

The noise is worst with 192 khz out of the TacT and "best" with 44.1, but also is present with 48 and 96.
9) I managed to get an .mp3 recording of the noise and can attach that file, but I don't see anywhere to do that here.

I'm really stumped. Smart digital people, please help.

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 05:39 pm »

Sorry to hear the frustration. I have been concerned about your choice of battery, even though it should not be as relevant to the noise issue.

What SB are you using, a stock or modded unit? Too bad I don't have a TacT to simulate your problem. In addition, this may well be isolated to your particular AA DAC. I mean, could there be a chance the DAC is somehow defective partially?

miklorsmith · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 05:42 pm »

My biggest hope right now is that it is partially defective. Charles has discounted that possibility, as he says it worked fine out of his CDP which has a 16-bit digital volume control. I don't know if he tried it using the digital volume, though I doubt it. He doesn't believe in the merits so I'm sure his system has another method of volume attenuation that he normally uses.

The SB is a battery-powered Vinnie mod.

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 07:49 pm »

Dennis [a.k.a. denjo] is also using Vinnie's battery enclosure with AA DAC.

By partially defective I meant the damage caused by shipping. Although it's like a miniature board, you'd never know when and where the bad luck strikes. Mine has been functioning flawlessly whether playing Redbook CD tracks, MP3, or hi-res data from DVD player. However, I intentionally turned off the SB volume control, letting the tube preamp take over the task.

Also, I am thinking, when you use the digital volume control to lower the sound level, probably the changes in bitrate and/or sampling frequency fall out of the AA DAC specs which starts to complain with audible noise. If you have a decent preamp or a TVC, I would turn up (max) the digital volume control and let the preamp/TVC do the task of loudness control.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 07:54 pm »

Hey, could you try running the volume down on your squeezebox, turn the volume up on your preamp, and tell me what you hear? If yours is quiet, mine's broken. If yours is noisy, it's probably inherent to the design.

The TacT is my volume control, I'm committed.

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 09:43 pm »

OK, I did as you said, turned down the digital volume on the SB, turned up the volume on the preamp. It's quiet like sheep.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 11:39 pm »

Wow. Maybe this thing's broken then. I can't say I've ever been happy to have broken equipment, except now.

This DAC is soooooooo good.

Thanks a lot, Paul!

denjo · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Nov 2006, 12:33 am »

Miklorsmith

Really sorry to hear about your woes but I am sure there must be some reasonable explanation! Can you be more specific with what you mean by "noisy"? This might help us understand what the cause of the problem is.

I will share an experience I had with my new Altmann. When I hooked the AA to my Philips 963 universal player (coax out), the red light on the AA started to blink erratically, making a "tic, tic" sound. My initial thoughts were I bought a "lemon" DAC but after I rationalised by a process of elimination, I discovered that my Philips was feeding the AA with digital garbage (Charles' words) - "garbage in, garbage out!". Replacing the transport eradicated the problem.

I have found the AA to be very sensitive (I mean it in a good sense) to jitter and digital garbage. When the red lights up, it is usually a sign that the transport is responsible. Did you notice the red light come on any time? If no, then your SB would seem to be feeding it with proper digital bits. I would then focus on your TacT, and perhaps give the TacT technical support a call.

Best Regards
Dennis

miklorsmith · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Nov 2006, 12:52 am »

Thanks, mon. No blinky.

I think Paul has sniffed out the culprit - my unit! Mine makes all kinds of noise with the TacT or SB volume down. Paul's doesn't. Thus, mine needs to be repaired - probably a shipping injury.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Nov 2006, 03:06 am »

Well, upon further research my problem might be worse - the DAC is not nearly as noisy with the Squeezebox as the TacT.

Dammit.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Nov 2006, 06:24 pm »

Update - I tried an Ack! DAC yesterday (sweet unit, BTW) and there's still noise at all the sampling rates available. I had an Ack! before, but I may not have used it after switching from the 2.2X to the XP - it was never an issue before.

gongos · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Nov 2006, 07:00 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 12 Nov 2006, 06:24 pm

Update - I tried an Ack! DAC yesterday (sweet unit, BTW) and there's still noise at all the sampling rates available. I had an Ack! before, but I may not have used it after switching from the 2.2X to the XP - it was never an issue before.

The Ack! Dack! had the full boat of Empirical Audio mods so no one is confused where its sweetness comes from.

I always have to give a shout out to Steve for his amazing work.

And Mike's Tact is messed up. I'd be flying off the handle if I were him, considering what those things cost.

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Nov 2006, 07:40 pm »

Very interesting! It may turn out there's nothing wrong with the AA DAC. I would try running the transport directly into the DAC and see what happens.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Nov 2006, 09:10 pm »

I sent a fairly pointed e-mail to TacT. I have the capability of becoming a very bad customer if need be but I hope it won't come to that.

denjo · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Nov 2006, 11:36 pm »

Miklorsmith

There is very little for the AA to go wrong - it is simpe and quite straightforward! I hope TacT will be able to help you resolve the problem promptly and tactfully (could not resist this!

) to enable you to enjoy the AA. It is a truly wonderful DAC and for those who enjoy analog and vinyl sound, I don't know of any other DAC that brings you this close to such an experience with redbook!

All the very best, hope to hear your listening experiences with the AA pretty soon!

Paul: how are you enjoying the AA with your Red Top?

Best Regards
Dennis

miklorsmith · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Nov 2006, 12:21 am »

TacT sent me a Return Authorization number and I'll be sending the TacT back to them for *repairs* tomorrow. Aside from the noise issue using external DACs, it works perfectly. They say the unit should be fully compatible, so I'm trusting they'll find out what the deal is and get it addressed.

The Altmann is phenomenal. It sounds like music. In fact, it has grabbed me in the same way my first single driver speaker did. In the same way that speaker reoriented my bearings/priorities in half an hour, the Altmann has similarly thrown me for a loop.

What I like about single-drivers: The music is presented as whole fabric. Looking closely can reveal the weave and materials and even closer, individual fibers. But, those composite parts are not forced into the frame.

My previous experiences with NOS DACs revealed them to be more to my liking but I could see why other aphiles would prefer "resolution, detail, imaging, and soundstaging" offered by higher-tech solutions. FWIW, these qualities are very low on my priority list.

The Attraction is extended, natural, and organic. It is also explosive, dynamic, and exceedingly fast. Speed is not merely a function of rise and decay time, but the breathing microshades of real instrumentation and the quavering of voice. Once hearing these qualities, they become a vital part of the overall presentation.

This is a piece I think can bridge the music lover vs. audiophile gap - it's very special.

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Nov 2006, 12:48 am »

Quote from: denjo on 12 Nov 2006, 11:36 pm

Paul: how are you enjoying the AA with your Red Top?

I luv the combo so much I asked Vinnie to make me an enclosure that will let the RWA SB2 (which needs 5v and 12v power inputs) also run off a Redtop battery, which could be the same with AAD or a separate one.

Mike,

Glad you also find the AA DAC natural, extended and organic. In addition, I find its detail, imaging and hi resolution aspect amazingly pleasant or pleasantly amazing.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Dec 2006, 08:42 pm »

Well, the final verdict is in - My TacT 2.2XP and Altmann Attraction DAC are not compatible. I'll not get into too many of the mucky details, but a month of downtime, $150 in shipping, and significant shipping damage to the Altmann's structure resulted in exactly zero improvement to the problem and situation.

Both parties say their equipment is working perfectly and that they are not obligated to take any returns or provide restitution of any kind. Indeed, the Altmann DAC seems OK hooked up to anything but the TacT and the XP seems to work, well, not with either of the DACs I've tried but certainly on its own. I assume the XP has a 16-bit compatibility issue of some sort, though they say they tried a 16-bit unit that worked fine.

Both parties feel the other is to blame. Who is at fault is not my primary concern, which is to get great sound. I don't have that yet. My solution is another DAC, the Lessloss, which has 192 khz processing at 24 bits natively. I'm really hoping this fills the bill.

Presented with all this, Charles Altmann passed along his best, to which I replied the following:

First off, I'll be sending the Attraction back to you for repairs. Part of the spruce board was smashed and I'd say the used condition went from a 9 to a 4. This is unacceptable to me, as it represents probably $500 on the used market.

The TacT is staying. My speakers have a main array and passive subs in the boxes. I love the speakers, but I use the sound contouring features frequently. I could probably get most of the same sound from passive EQ, but that would require separate boxes and yet another element in the signal path which also isn't that great. I may wind up there but I'm not prepared to do that now.

As far as fault, I don't really care who's fault it is. It seems we have here two otherwise perfectly functioning pieces of gear which just don't agree with each other. I guess I'm looking at this as part of the "cost of doing business" of an audiophile searching for nirvana.

Boz is blaming the DAC, which works great with everything else, you're blaming the TacT, all of it is ultimately unimportant to me, as the sound is still broken. It is surprising to me that between the two of you digital experts no solution could be found.

I'm sure I could sell the Attraction, I would guess for $1,200 usd, which would be about a $500 loss. This to me is a significant loss. However, to be real, that loss has already occurred. Therefore, I'm in no big hurry to sell. I will likely keep it around to show off and use in my second system. I would never have expected to do such a thing but there you have it.

It seems I will have two different amps for my main rig, as I couldn't get myself to sell my Yamamoto SET amp upon getting Red Wine's new Signature 70's, which also are excellent.

Ultimately, my solution is to buy a new DAC. I found a Lessloss used in France for $2,000. You should check that one out, they have a really cool and informative website. It uses the 1704 chip, features 192 khz/24 bit resolution, and battery power for the output stage. It also uses filtered AC mains for the digital section, which they said worked better for them.

Boz said he had some 16 bit DAC that worked fine with the TacT and that his measurement equipment measured no noise from the digital output. So, I'm hoping it's merely a compatibility issue and both pieces can live out their useful lives peacefully. Consider it a divorce after a brief, tempestuous marriage. It saddens me, but I am left with no viable choice.

Is it a defeat or opportunity? Had I not found the Lessloss, I would have considered this a profound defeat. Not having heard the Lessloss, I'm hopeful it will be as good as the Attraction. If it is no worse, I will think of this as an unlucky and expensive detour on my road to musical bliss.

I wish I had at least gotten to the bottom of the problem, solution discovered or not. As it is, I would happily recommend either the TacT unit or Attraction DAC to prospective buyers, but there's this compatibility cloud that I will have to include in every recommendation. Is is a 24-bit limitation in the Attraction? Should people beware of 16-bit DACs in the TacT? Is it really Just This Particular Combination that is to blame? I never will know.

Anyway, I will probably send the Attraction back to you after the Holidays for what will surely be an easy repair for you. I think the spruce board needs to be replaced and that's it - the rest of the unit seems perfectly functional.

Thanks for all your help,

Mike

I can't wait to hear the Lessloss!

studley · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Dec 2006, 02:00 am »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 15 Dec 2006, 08:42 pm

I can't wait to hear the Lessloss!

Checked out the Lessloss website. They sure talk a good game. Be sure to tell us what you think of it Miklorsmith.

Don_S · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Dec 2006, 11:39 pm »

Mike, Have you tried connecting the XP in the bypass mode? Some TacT uers experienced problems using the earlier TacT models with certain external DACs because of the delay time in the TacT due to processing. Apparently some external DACs interpreted the delay as no signal. Maybe bypass will shorten processing time and let you establish a connection. That would be useful information but not a workable solution.

Good luck, Don