Audiophile Led Zep CD's?

BobC · « **on:** 8 Nov 2006, 08:42 pm »

So I've been listening to my Led Zeppelin 4 CD box set forever (I bought it....hmmm about 15 years ago!)...and either the master wasn't very good or these particular CDs aren't that great regarding sound (not music) quality.

So does anyone know if there are good "remastered" or "audiophile" Zeppelin CD available? Where would I find them and are they any good?

Sorry don't do vinyl or SACD or DVD-A.

Oooo, wouldn't it be nice if Blu-ray or HD-DVD began it offer high-rez audio?

Thanks!

nathanm · « **Reply #1 on:** 8 Nov 2006, 08:54 pm »

The drums are distorted, right? Is that what you're hearing BobC?

BobC · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Nov 2006, 08:54 pm »

I take your comment to mean that in your opinion, most Led Zep recordings aren't very good?

I don't have "How the West Was Won" or any individual albums- I'll add it to my list. Thanks for the tip.

I just know that sometimes artists release remastered, 24/96, gold, special editions (whatever you want to call it). Was wondering if Led Zep did the same. Or if the individual albums sounded better than the box set?

Thanks!

Gordy · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 Nov 2006, 08:55 pm »

Jimmy Page remastered all the albums for the 1994 re-releases. I'm not familiar with the order of release for the box sets but, whichever one it was that was released around 2000 was made with the same updated masters. Yeah, 'How The West' is incredible, was there for that tour

BobC · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Nov 2006, 08:58 pm »

Drums are distorted and it generally has a harsh sound (sorry I'm no poet). I find myself turning it up louder and louder to hear all of the fine detail and it becomes overpowering.

Also has a rather 2D feel, shallow soundstage. (these wouldn't be mono would they?)

I don't have this issue with other more refined rock recordings. AC/DC Back in Black being a good example.

BobC · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Nov 2006, 09:01 pm »

Quote from: Gordy on 8 Nov 2006, 08:55 pm

Jimmy Page remastered all the albums for the 1994 re-releases. I'm not familiar with the order of release for the box sets but, whichever one it was that was released around 2000 was made with the same updated masters. Yeah, 'How The West' is incredible, was there for that tour

Hmmm, maybe I should look for a used 2000 reissue box set then?

I guess I was hoping to just buy all of the individual re-issued albums, IF they offered superior sound quality over my current set (I think I bought them in 1990 if memory serves me).

Wayner · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 12:20 am »

I agree that the original master tapes for early Led are not that good. Even if today's technology is that much better, without a good master, it can't get much better....and sometimes can actually get worse, revealing the sonic inferiors of the time it was recorded. That's life.

Midnite Mick · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 12:28 am »

People that like this kind of music must really be looked down on by the industry. Why do they just totally disregard any kind of effort in producing a good sounding product. If jazz cd's can sound incredible why can't those in the rock/blues genre sound the same. It is kind of a slap in the face because it doesn't need to be this way. My listenable rock/blues cd collection is so small. There is so much music that I enjoy that I am missing out on because of this. I think I need to go buy a boombox.

Mike

Daygloworange · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 12:52 am »

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I think "Audiophile Led Zeppelin CD" is an oxymoron.

Yeah, as much as I hate to admit it. They were groundbreaking in a lot of respects however. I believe Led Zeppelin 1 was an 8 track recording. ( I might be wrong, it's been so long,I used to know all stuff Zeppelin )

The later albums were recorded at remote locations, mainly mansions in the English countryside, with overdubs sometimes done in studios. Some of the drum miking and recording techniques became benchmarks that still exist today. Bonham's drum sound in particular was something that set their recordings apart. They focused on his drum sound the most, and worked off of that. The electric guitars are some of the worst ever recorded. Some very intimate acoustic guitar sounds though.

Overall they aren't great sounding records, but very charming, and innovative for the time. ( Lotsa cool effects, phasing, flanging, backwards tape effects ) Oh, and apparently, subliminal demonic backwards messages.

When Jimmy Page went right back to the master tapes to do the box set, they had huge problems. They would put the tapes up on the reel to reel and the magnetic coating was getting scraped off as the tape was running over the playback head, destroying the tape!

No one had encountered this before, and they actually had to devise a method to reverse the effects of prolonged exposure to humidity the masters had encountered during storage for all those years. They theorized that if they were to bake them that they would be restored enough to use them. They baked them and were able to run them for one pass and transfer to a digital audio tape recorder. They may have been ruined for all time after this transfer.

They then used the digital copies as masters and worked from these to create the box set. Jimmy Page was involved in the entire process and nothing got released until he was happy with it. ( he was miserable with the sonic quality of early CD releases of Zeppelin.) The box set is as good as it's going to get for those recordings. He made sure that it was as good as it was ever going to get. He had all the time in the world, and the best people and equipment at his disposal to do so, I don't think there will ever be another re-mastering.

You have to take it for what it is, and what it was. ( and what it will never be....)

I listen to it with much fondness from that perspective, and I appreciate the ground breaking production aspect for the era, but sonically, they aren't great recordings.

P.S. case in point. Here's a neat thing. Put your speakers beside each other. Turn your balance knob to one side. Play the intro to " When the Levee Breaks", just the drum part.....now repeat but throw the balance to the other speaker and listen to the difference in drum sound....you'll think your listening to two different speakers. The difference is dramatic. This would never happen today. Enjoy.

Gotta love the Zep though!

Cheers

John Casler · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 01:44 am »

As much as it has been "overplayed", I can still sit and listen to "Stairway" over and over and all the way through.

Talk about getting you to move, if you don't get an air guitar or air drum kit going on this one you have no ears

(or pulse

)

I set up a "Top 10" list on my OLIVE the other day and so far have got it down to 24 cuts.

Stairway will be one of those cuts, and it 'IS' audiophile quality.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 02:12 am »

Quote

People that like this kind of music must really be looked down on by the industry. Why do they just totally disregard any kind of effort in producing a good sounding product. If jazz cd's can sound incredible why can't those in the rock/blues genre sound the same.

Apples and oranges. Jazz bands don't play as loud as rock bands do. You can set up a jazz band in a good sounding live room and pretty much record with a pair of large diaphram condenser microphones in a stereo configuration, and a few spot mic's and you can acheive a great 2 channel recording. Not so with a rock band. It would just be noise. Large diaphram condensers just can't handle high SPL's and transients gracefully. Dynamic mic's can, but are near field mic's. You can't use them for capturing room ambience, as they roll off low's quite radically with distance ( called proximity effect ) They don't sound open and airy like the condensers do. They don't have the shimmer in the high either.That's the main big differences in the recording quality of the genres.

In rock music, drums are very problematic because of how hard they are hit. John Bonham played a Ludwig kit that was considered a jazz kit, comparable to Gene Krupa, and Buddy Rich. His cymbals were considered "rock" cymbals though. But the kit, and the tuning of his drums, were of a jazz nature.

By the same token, there are a lot of bad recording of all types of music. I've heard atrocious, pathetic recordings of classical and jazz. It's a more forgiving source though.

Quote

Stairway will be one of those cuts, and it 'IS' audiophile quality.

The intimacy of the acoustic guitar and woodwinds in the beginning are well done. That is one of the better ones.

If you are listening to Zeppelin for sonics, then you will be disappointed. Listen to Supertramp's stuff instead. Much better sonically. "Fools Overture" even by today's standards is amazing. Pink Floyd as well.

The worst example I can think of is Jimi Hendrix's stuff. It's absolutely pathetic, garbage.

Cheers

Daygloworange · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 02:31 am »

Quote

Gonna have to disagree with you here. With an oversize 26" bass drum, 14" mounted tom, deep shell snare (6.5"), and two floor toms, Bonham's was hardly a jazz kit, which is typified by smaller diameter bass, mounted tom, and floor toms. His early 1970s kit was rock-n-roll by all definitions.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Check your history of drums. It's a popular misconception. It was a jazz drum. The drums weren't getting bigger because of rock music. Actually, guitars became electric because they couldn't compete with bigger drums anymore.

His were maple drum shells. Thin ply. Very resonant, tuned open. Rock drums were using birch, thicker shells to minimize resonance, were muffled etc....

Ed Shaunessey from the tonight show was a kick butt jazz drummer with double kicks. Big bass drums are a problem for rock drummers, so are toms, not an asset.

Cheers

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 02:43 am »

John Bonham's kit info.......

Daygloworange · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 02:57 am »

Quote

Talk about resonant drums. Ludwig Vistalites are about the most resonant drums I've ever heard. Still own a set today. They were clearly (no pun intended) not intended for jazz. They project like motherf***rs. Don't tune particularly well, though.

Yeah, agreed. I'm talking about 3 ply maple shells, with the reinforcing rings though, coated Ambassador and Emperor heads and so forth.

Vistalites were using the black dot and Pinstripe mylar/hydraulic heads. All that stuff was about Rock drums.

But the old Ludwig stuff, the Supraphonic 402, Black beauty, Symphonic snares and 3 ply maple shells, that was the old jazz stuff.

Actually, Frankie Banali, the drummer from Quiet Riot is a Ludwig nut and drum historian, particularly about Bonham stuff. I don't have any links, but check him out.

tvad4, lonewolfny42, thanks for the links, cool stuff.

Gotta love the Vistalite's under the lights though.

Cheers

boead · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 03:16 am »

You think Led Zeppelin sounds bad, pick up a Rush CD of anything from Moving Pictures back.

The remastered 4-disc box set sounds much better then the original CD releases of the albums. The one with the crop circles on the cover.

Queen sucks too.

The Doors sound GREAT! They got the opportunity to record in amazing studios. So did the Grateful Dead. I like the Carpenters (don’t laugh!) which might be some of the worst recorded music of all times.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 03:19 am »

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We'd have popped woodies had hydraulic or pinstripe heads been available.

Actually, Pinstripes might have only come out in the 80's, you're right. But I believe Bonham used black dots on his.

BTW, I'm only a few years younger than you.

Cheers

Daygloworange · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 03:24 am »

Ok, here's a link you're going to love

http://www.saladrecords.com/bonhamfiles.htm

Cheers

chadh · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 04:49 am »

Those Bonham drum tracks are kind of wild. They helped me appreciate how much of the Led Zeppelin sound and feel is really attributable to the drummer!

But they also made me wonder: why don't we get get a steady diet of great drummers any more? Keith Moon, Ginger Baker, John Bonham: - these guys were all great. Are there drummers in mainstream music today who even come close?

Maybe this phenomenon isn't only drummer related. I remember talking a few years ago to a guitarist is a local NC band. She told me she was busy expanding her repetoire of covers. She was especially anxious to master a slew of Creed covers, as the Creed guitarist had been acclaimed as the top rock guitarist in the world. If she wanted great guitar work, I asked, why didn't she just master the Led Zeppelin song book? But she just laughed and said, "That stuff's just way too hard." I have this terrible feeling that the quality of musicianship that made bands like Led Zeppelin, The Who and Cream great just isn't valued in the market today.

All this talk of drummers has me wondering now...what on earth happened to Stewart Copeland?

Chad

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 05:04 am »

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All this talk of drummers has me wondering now...what on earth happened to Stewart Copeland?

He keeps busy....check his site......

jakepunk · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Nov 2006, 05:10 am »

Quote from: boead on 9 Nov 2006, 03:16 am

The remastered 4-disc box set sounds much better then the original CD releases of the albums. The one with the crop circles on the cover.

There were two boxed sets with crop circles, the "Boxed Set Vol. 1" with 4 discs and the "Remastered" one with 3 discs. I have the 4 disc one. I guess that means that the 4 disc set is the original recordings?