Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers

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DogWizard

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I know that from speaking with Klaus and reading through the Odyssey Circle that the official recommended method of powering the Odyssey amps is straight from the wall as opposed to line conditioners as such. While I certainly don't want to limit my new amps potential, the reality is that I live in Florida - the lighting capitol of the known universe. I am also unfortunate enough to be on one of the most unstable power grids I have ever experienced - brown outs and significant voltage swings (114-121) are a constant and daily reality. I want to get the best performance possible but I also don't want to come home to fried amps...

So my question is - does anyone have any recommendations regarding the PS Audio power regenerators? I don't think that the P-500 could cut it but the P-600 looks like it should be able to handle most anything that I could throw at it. Since they are not "filter/conditioners" in the traditional sense, how much a power limitation factor should they introduce?

Any help would be much appreciated...

Thanks,
-DogWizard

lazydays

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #1 on: 5 Nov 2006, 05:32 pm »
this is new to me, but then again I don't have an owner's manual either. I use a Monster 5000 series power conditioner, that is user adjustable. It has two or three outlets that are on all the time, and planed on using two of them for the amps. Am I wrong in this setup?
gary

mtodde

Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #2 on: 5 Nov 2006, 05:45 pm »
I know that from speaking with Klaus and reading through the Odyssey Circle that the official recommended method of powering the Odyssey amps is straight from the wall as opposed to line conditioners as such. While I certainly don't want to limit my new amps potential, the reality is that I live in Florida - the lighting capitol of the known universe. I am also unfortunate enough to be on one of the most unstable power grids I have ever experienced - brown outs and significant voltage swings (114-121) are a constant and daily reality. I want to get the best performance possible but I also don't want to come home to fried amps...

So my question is - does anyone have any recommendations regarding the PS Audio power regenerators? I don't think that the P-500 could cut it but the P-600 looks like it should be able to handle most anything that I could throw at it. Since they are not "filter/conditioners" in the traditional sense, how much a power limitation factor should they introduce?

Any help would be much appreciated...

Thanks,
-DogWizard

A regeneration is a different animal entirely than a filter/conditioner.  That being said I'd recommend putting it on a separate regenerator than your other gear if possible so that it doesn't have to compete for current.  Of course budgets don't always allow things like this but I do think you'll notice a sonic difference if it is possible.  If it isn't possible, a slight reduction in power capacity is a small trade off compared to not having an amp.

DogWizard

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #3 on: 5 Nov 2006, 05:48 pm »
Klaus was pretty specific about the direct power thing and I have run across several other threads in this circle and others more or less confirming that point of view. As I understand it, most traditional "power conditioners" use a combination of physical filters and surprise - toroidal transformers to filter and buffer the power. This can lead to delayed response issues and basically just create a current-limiting situation which robs the amp of the power needed to handle quick transients. I could be way off base but in theory it makes sense. You wouldn't notice any issues on lower draw source components and the benefits far outweigh the penalty but once you throw in high draw components (amplifiers) all bets are off...

That's why I was hoping to track down some real-world experience with the PS Audio gear as it actually converts the AC to DC and regenerates it back into a (theoretically) perfect AC sine wave with no real voltage variance and no extra noise. The bigger units should also have enought headroom to accommodate even a high current draw amplifier - or so I hope...

Thanks,
-DogWizard

mtodde

Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #4 on: 5 Nov 2006, 05:49 pm »
this is new to me, but then again I don't have an owner's manual either. I use a Monster 5000 series power conditioner, that is user adjustable. It has two or three outlets that are on all the time, and planed on using two of them for the amps. Am I wrong in this setup?
gary

This is what I've been using and it does have designated "high current" outlets.  That being said, I did notice a reduction in dynamic range with both the Stratos and my current Audio Research VT-100 Mk. II.  The 5000 Mk. II just doesn't have enough oomph to support a high current amp and the normal host of gear.  When you can you may want to look for a unit with higher current...or you can do like me and go straight to the wall.

DMi

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #5 on: 5 Nov 2006, 06:17 pm »
I know a bit about power and power supplies but I have no direct experience with the PS Audio stuff. From your email you have more than one issue with power and your choice largely depends on what you want to fix. You have the issue of massive surges, particularly lightening strikes going to ground and passing through your equipment which are probably the most damaging element to a power amplifier. MOV's alone will not protect and neither will switches which just act like a spark gap to lightening. I have always used Panamax products due to their ability to protect the load under these conditions and if you own your home I would consider installing whole house protection provided by that company as a first line of defense. If you don't own and rent or lease I would use one of their AV products to provide the isolation from that type of amperage and voltage from getting to your equipment. I have them on every piece of electronics in my home and have little or no fears of lightening as a result.

The second issue I see is probably handled by something like the PS Audio product. It won't let you listen when the whole neighborhood is dark but it will regulate the voltage somewhat back to optimum levels for your equipment. There are also some higher power audio UPS products to consider if you spend most of your time in a brown out.

As for the Odyssey power amplifers. Considering they are mated with 15 Amp IEC connectors I would expect them to use way less than 1800 Watts even at peak and they have massive capacitors which means they store a lot of current for instantaneous use so their should be a great deal of buffering effect built in the design. They probably draw less than 100 Watts when idle and bounce around far below the theoretical maximum of 1800 when playing music. I also don't know about their power factor needs but I have my guesses based on theory.

I haven't ever stuck a watt meter on one but I would bet Klaus has and he would be the guy to ask regarding their care and feeding. I have asked before if I would benefit from installing 20 amp circuits for his stuff and been told he didn't think I would need to do so. I am in the pay and wait stage myself moving from Stratos Stereo plus to Extreme monos and three channel for main system.

I don't think I would trust the PS Audio stuff for handling the surge extremes but it appears to rated good enough to help with the brown outs and minor over voltages. Just my opinion and we all know about opinions but Panamax has saved my stuff a number of times and I think you're looking a a combination fix for the overall life of your stuff as well as good sound. So long as you use very good LC filtering or regeneration you won't notice much loss but you will gain a lot of piece of mind.

I can tell you an aftermarket power cord will make a huge difference in the amplifer so I expect if you restrict current to much to it it will have detrimental results in the sound.

Doug Sharp

Randy


arthur

Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #7 on: 6 Nov 2006, 01:50 am »
yeah i've been following the http://www.purepoweraps.com/ too, but the price point is way out of the range that i would be willing to pay for such a product. But as soon as they drop the prices to at least $1k i'll definitely give them a try.

DogWizard

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #8 on: 6 Nov 2006, 02:19 am »
I hadn't run in to the Purepower products yet - thanks for the heads-up. Any idea how long they've been in the game? It looks like Wally at Underwood is selling them on Agon so it may be worth a call. They would be really pushing the budget but if it does all that it advertises it may be worth the investment. Unfortunately it's coming in at over twice what you can pick up a used P-600 for...

Looks like more research for me...

Thanks,
-DogWizard

lazydays

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #9 on: 7 Nov 2006, 04:55 pm »
this is new to me, but then again I don't have an owner's manual either. I use a Monster 5000 series power conditioner, that is user adjustable. It has two or three outlets that are on all the time, and planed on using two of them for the amps. Am I wrong in this setup?
gary

This is what I've been using and it does have designated "high current" outlets.  That being said, I did notice a reduction in dynamic range with both the Stratos and my current Audio Research VT-100 Mk. II.  The 5000 Mk. II just doesn't have enough oomph to support a high current amp and the normal host of gear.  When you can you may want to look for a unit with higher current...or you can do like me and go straight to the wall.

In the area I live in we can have some pretty violent thunderstorms, and it's been just a standard practice to use power conditioners in your system. As for power usage, I never have anything on but the amps & preamp plus the source. I'd say my turntable and phono stage may draw as much current as the Candella preamp by itself, and that would be a worst case scenario.
gary

bunky

Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #10 on: 7 Nov 2006, 09:37 pm »
I plug my monoextreme SE's directly into the wall outlet and my preamplifier and CD player into a power conditioner.i have heard some very good things about the newest PS Audio power conditioners and i may decide to try one of them out. thanks....WCW III

djbnh

Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #11 on: 7 Nov 2006, 10:18 pm »
I plug my monoextreme SE's directly into the wall outlet and my preamplifier and CD player into a power conditioner
Ditto re: Mono Extremes. Add a TT into the power conditioner as well.

klaus@odyssey

Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #12 on: 10 Nov 2006, 08:57 am »
In general,  ALWAYS  go direct into the wall,  yes.  Experiment first with this,  since it's free.
However,  I can't rule out that some of you might like it better with a conditioner etc.  There is no single ultimate statement.  Every system is organic,  and it's your system  your ears,  your taste, and your amps.  BUT  no matter what you do,  make sure that you have a money back guarantee on any of these units,  just in case.

Klaus

Eugene2

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #13 on: 11 Nov 2006, 02:36 pm »
I have tried the Extremes both ways.  I have Shunyata 2 for amps and a Shunyata 8 for everything else.  The background seems darker with more detail.  Also had a Pass 350.5 which many claim is the one of the best amps made (I like the extremes better, go figure) and it liked the Hydras.

speyer

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #14 on: 12 Nov 2006, 05:53 am »
Since you're worried about lightning and surges, DMi makes a good suggestion: install a whole-house surge protector at the junction box of the house.  I, too, live in a thunderstorm-rich environment---rural Minnesota---this summer, I installed a unit from Environmental Potentials that was adapted from their industrial model, the EP 205.  Since I have  no way of monitoring surges and/or pikes caused by lightning, etc., I really cannot say how effectively the unit worked, but having the unit in place lessened my anxiety throughout the storm season, so much so that I left my system plugged in and running in spite of numerous storms. The unit also had another benefit in that it lowered a bit of high frequency hash that I was not aware of until I installed the EP 2050.  This enhanced resolution and soundstaging.  The unit was reviewed in Enjoy the Music by Bill Gaw in one of his "Audiolics Anonymous" columns several months ago.

I agree with our guru, Klaus, that in general, amps should be plugged into the wall.  However, on the issue of low-level noise and distortion caused by mains hash, I think there is so much crap coming in on the AC that scrubbing it clean is mandatory.  While I am aware of the current limiting characteristics of many devices, there are those that operate in parallel or otherwise do not limit or whose effect is negligible.  Now, I am no authority on this matter and I am simply sharing MY experience with experimenting with only a handful of cables, conditioners, regenerators, and filters, but for MY ears and MY system---mono extremes, placette passive pre, custom battery operated phono pre, sony scd-777es with level 5 VSE mods, and a pair of mod'ed Apogee Duetta Signature ribbon speakers that are very current demanding---cleaning the AC is a major enhancement to my enjoyment of the music.

I use a balanced transformer unit ---BPT 2.5+, that is rated at a mere 15 amps that I plug the amps and cd player into and do not experience, at least to my ears, current limiting from the BPT unit.  And, yes, I have listened with and without the unit in place, plugging the amps directly into the wall.  And, I also forgot to mention, I have a dedicated AC line to feed the amps, and nothing other than the amps and cd player are fed off of this line.

I also use other noise reducing devices: diy parallel capacitor filters at several places, Bybee purifiers at numerous places including the BPT conditioner, speakers, and phono pre.  I am a tweaker from way back and I find that clean AC is a major, essential, vital, prime (whatever term in your vocabulary you use to emphasize extreme importance) ingredient of a high definition, musically satisfying hifi system.

Also on the subject of noise and distortion, I use various devices to reduce or damp or redirect vibrations.  Aurios, tip-toes of various shapes, sizes, and material (brass and stainless steel), lead-shot whatyamacallits, marigo tuning dots (tiny, tiny miracle workers).  In general, these devices lower the noise floor and reduce distortion resulting in an enhanced soundstage and more resolution and transparency.  My Extremes are more defined and have better resolution when mounted on the huge brass tip-toes from Mapleshade (the tip-toes are set on maple planks).  Like AC mains conditioners/regenerators, I consider these devices essential.  Each affects the components and sound differently.  As Klaus reminds, experimentation is the key to finding that synergy for our system.

Eugene2

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #15 on: 13 Nov 2006, 01:16 am »
 I am in Florida also, Orlando if you ever wish to compare the extremes into the wall versus into Shunyata's.
System: 
Mono SE Extremes
Candela (should be here this week)
Edge G CD Player
VMPS RM30M with TRT, OXO and all other upgrades
Larger Sub
Virtual Dynamics Master bi-wire and interconnect
Shunyata Hydra 8 and 2
Virtual Dynamics and Electraglide PC
Mapleshade Cones and Disc
Auralex Bass bass traps and Pyramids
Argent Room Lens

DogWizard

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Re: Here comes another question - Power and Odyssey Amplifiers
« Reply #16 on: 14 Nov 2006, 01:56 am »
Thanks everyone for the suggestions and especially the offer for a listen. I think that I'll play this one by ear, try the system with and without and let my ears decide if the negatives outweigh the positives. If anyone stumbles into this thread with direct experience with one of the "power regeneration" systems, I would still appreciate hearing about your experiences...

Thanks Again,
-DogWizard