single driver

Don Maico · « **on:** 4 Nov 2006, 10:23 pm »

Anyone have any experience of thse kind of speakers?

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 11:30 pm »

Your inquiry is too general. You need to describe what you want to know about them and what sort of application you expect them to do, and with what sort of equipment you want to pair them.

maxwalrath · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 11:45 pm »

Check out the hornshoppe, omega speakers, and open baffle forums.

Don Maico · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 09:12 am »

Wwell origuinaly I was very tempted by Norh 3 drums or prisms but as I can get no reply from them I decided to look elsewhere and the nam TBI majestic Diamonds was recommended to me. They, by contrast, respnded very quickly to my queries but I'm just kind of fishing around to see if anyone has any experience of these. I f I do buy them I shall also buy a Sonic Impact t amp as well and I'll use the two with either my Mac , iPod or cd player. I know its kind of fiddly as the ST only has one input but its also light enough to not be too much hassle.
my listening room is small, 10.5x12.5 ft ,but I would've thought the Diamonds would be ideal as they are reputably easy to place.Only snag is I cant listen to them before buying so I' de taking a chance hoping they are not too bright.
Thanks

JLM · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 02:33 pm »

Don,

I've heard many single driver speakers, in various cabinets. In nearly all cases I prefer to call them extended range, not full range drivers, to avoid quibbling and to accurately reflect their performance. Another qualifier, I don't consider coaxial designs (tweeter at the center of the woofer) to be a single driver. Regardless of what you call them, they all have the following advantages:

1. Time and phase coherency - no crossover, no physical offset of multiple drivers, no differing sounds from various (types) of drivers. Ideal point source for imaging/soundstaging, especially under nearfield conditions.

2. Direct amp to driver connection - amazingly more/deeper bass and more dynamic with the amp being able to "see" the load for clearly.

3. Mid-range emphasis - the middle 6 octaves (80 - 5,000 Hz) is the essence of music and at the heart of what these drivers do best.

Some extended range drivers, like Lowthers, are expensive. Most are highly efficient (size being a factor). Many extended range drivers, like Lowthers (which have been around for 70 years), use whizzer cones (smaller secondary cones) to extend treble response/dispersion.

In order to extend bass response (the primary shortcoming of extended range drivers) various, fairly exotic, cabinet designs have been developed such as front loaded or rear loaded horn designs, tuned quarter wave pipes, and mass loaded transmission lines. Conversely the "simplier the better" camp has applied them to open baffles (just the front mounting board in several variations). The obvious challenge here is lack of bass response.

For a smaller system the 4.5 inch Fostex FE127E is a solid performer. Fostex offers several extended range drivers and so is probably the most popular source for these types of drivers. You can buy a pair for $75 from Madisound and try them in simple open baffles and if you like them, send them to Louis at Omega to be installed in one of his very fine cabinets. BTW Fostex also publishes deceptively simple but highly tweaked cabinet designs for each of these drivers if you'd like to DIY.

TBI does have a good reputation for their very unique subs. The Diamonds seem to use similar technology but aren't well known. Most direct purchase vendors offer a trial period.

Before you jump at a Sonic Impact amp, I'd check out Partsexpress and look into the Sonic Impact Super T amp that for $100 more provides lots of tweaks:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-956&raid=27&rak=300-956

Here's a review of it:

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact2/t2.html

And to complete the little system, I'd recommend a $300 wireless Squeeze Box. It allows to you rip all your music to your PC hard drive and playback very conveniently anywhere in the house. It includes volume control, software, and internet radio. The Squeeze Box is 8 inches wide, 4 inches tall, and 3 inches deep. And it can be modded later on for extremely good sound.

Don Maico · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 05:50 pm »

Many thanks for your detailed reply JLM

. On the strength of your recomendaion I have just bought the Supper T amp via Ebay .I Someone suggested I would need a regulated power supply such as this:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=12205&DOY=search&C=SEO&U=Strat12
we run off 220-240 volts here so the supplied lead would be no good.
As for the speakers I think I'll take the esy way out and just plump for the Diamonds rather than buying a driver nad then getting it boxed by Omega. My only concern being that Norh seem to go considerable extent claiming that square followed by rectangular shapes are the worst for speakers but then ,I guess, they would.

Songforyou · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 06:12 pm »

Hi Don,

I owned the Diamonds along with a pair of TBI subs. I now own the Omega Super 3Rs. I also had a Sonic Impact and replaced it with a Super T amp.

First, the Diamonds are not bright at all. They are very smooth and create a wonderful soundstage. I placed them on bookshelves first and moved them out into the room on cheap metal stands later. They sounded better on stands (every speaker I've tried does), but they are still good on a shelf close to the wall. They integrate very well with the TBI subs (I started with one and then traded in the Diamonds toward a second sub).

My intention was always to get the Omega Super 3Rs and that's what I did. They are different from the Diamonds sonically. They image just as well or better. They are much faster. In my experience they are also leaner and careful system matching is important. The Diamonds are more forgiving with mediocre electronics and with crappy recordings (especially rock).

Neither speaker is going to give you much in the way of bass. Both integrate beautifully with the TBI subs.

Depending on your musical tastes, I would say that the Diamonds sound a little more full than the Super 3Rs. And they are easier to place on shelves or close to a wall. The Omegas are a hell of a lot better looking.

There is a catch, however: the Omegas are more efficient and easier to drive. In spite of their size (or because of it, actually), the Diamonds require more power. I did not drive them with the sonic impact, but I know the folks at TBI recommend the pairing. I did drive the Omegas with both sonic impact amps and they had no problem driving this speaker. I drove both the Diamonds and the Omegas with a 20 wpc Scott tube integrated and I did have to turn the volume up higher with the Diamonds.

Finally, if you go with the Super T (it is better that the original sonic impact sonically and cosmetically), then you will NOT be able to use most subs due to the way the sonic impact amps are wired. This is a drag, because both speakers mentioned above perform better with subs.

By the way, both TBI and Omega are a pleasure to deal with and their products are first rate.

In a nutshell:

If placement and space is a concern the Diamonds are a good choice providing the Super T can drive them to adequate levels.

The Super T can drive the Omegas as loud as you are likely to want. If you have more room, this may be the way to go. You will get tight, fast bass, but the pairing might be a little lean for long term though.

Ideally, you may want to aim for a small tube amp and a sub down the road.

One thing is for sure: once you go to single driver speakers, I doubt you will go back. There is just something inherently right about the sound. Music sounds much more natural and inviting and they are amazing for movies too.

Hope this helps!

Don Maico · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 10:09 pm »

Yes it does very much so and thanks.

Jan Plummer says he is looking to design a passive sub that would complement the the T amp so that is something I can look forward to . As to the lack of available power and low sensitivity - I dont play music very loud and the room I intend to use them is small-10.5x12.5 ft.Placing is definitely an issue with me as I can only use shelves or wall brackets. Another thing that impressed about TBI was their customer service - they replied straight away t my email. I hope they find a following in the UK although the market here is very tough as people tend to stick to brands they know.
As for the Omegas the super 3 are out of my budget and are to big anyway.The Mini Me might be an option but at 4 ohms would that not make them harder to drive?Would the super T deliver sufficient current. They are also ported which causes placement problems doesnt it?
Apologies if these sound like dumb questions but I am not at all technical.

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 03:44 am »

Don,

T amps actually prefer 4 ohm to 8 ohm loads, so no problem.

From a quick re-read of the 6moons review, I'd try looking for a beefier power supply as long as you need to change it out anyway.

It's nice that Plummer is thinking about a passive sub, but with only $139 invested in the amp, I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, bass takes much more power than the rest of the frequency spectrum combined, so it'd probably run out of juice anyway. (Even if you don't listen loud, amps should be sized to provide a commanding grip on the speakers in order to provide sufficient dynamics, especially for reproduction of bass.)

Conventional wisdom says ported designs must be placed 30 cm or more from walls/etc. But from what I know of air pressures, imaging would be a much bigger factor.

Have fun and let us know how it goes.

Don Maico · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 06:57 am »

Thanks all.!

I'll probably plump for the Diamonds as they look a safer bet to me for reasons of size and placement.I am sure they'll be fine . I'm the meantime I'm trying to promote the notion of single driver speakers to the good people in AV forums( UK site)

Seems not too many are that aware of them or at last they are as yet not that popular. Quote:

"I take it that these are similar in concept to the likes of The Eclipse TD series speakers. Bandwidth limited (more so at the bottom rather than the top end) their amazing speed and timing communicated in a quite remarkable way. It was the TD-712s I was listening to @ about £5k odd so they should have been good. I also remember them having one of the tightest sweet spots I've ever experienced.

I've not heard the TBIs, but based purely on the Eclipse, I'm sure part of the effortless speed and dynamics were in essence due to their lack of bass, relying as they do on the reproduction of the upper harmonics of a given bass note, to suggest the lower portion.

I'm not sure if adding a sub isn't contrary to the design essence of these types of speakers. For certain, great care is going to have to be taken over integrating a suitable sub so as not to loose, or swamp, the qualities that these type of speakers major on.

I'd also guess and it is a guess that you're heading in the right direction by going for a small, sealed sub inspite of their lack of popularity round these parts. You're going to need something with a top notch impulse response otherwise it's going to be left trailing in the wake of the TBIs.

That's my two peneth anyway."

Don Maico · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 07:07 am »

Finally I've got one final question this time regarding Norhs- Would you say the shape issue is important as the manufacturter claims? H e states that square is the worst foillowed by rectangular. Seems odd when just about every other manufacturer uses a rectangular shape for their enclosures.

Found one British manufactuer of single driver speakers:
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=6563

The prices ,though, are prohibitive and massive boxes too

GHM · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 08:31 am »

Those sure look like Jordan drivers in those speakers.

I wouldn't worry about the shape of the box comment. Sounds like marketing more than anything else.

Don Maico · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 08:33 am »

Quote from: GHM on 6 Nov 2006, 08:31 am

Those sure look like Jordan drivers in those speakers. I wouldn't worry about the shape of the box comment. Sounds like marketing more than anything else.

Yes they are Jordans

Don Maico · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 09:01 am »

Quote from: JLM on 6 Nov 2006, 03:44 am

Don,

T amps actually prefer 4 ohm to 8 ohm loads, so no problem.

From a quick re-read of the 6moons review, I'd try looking for a beefier power supply as long as you need to change it out anyway.

It's nice that Plummer is thinking about a passive sub, but with only $139 invested in the amp, I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, bass takes much more power than the rest of the frequency spectrum combined, so it'd probably run out of juice anyway. (Even if you don't listen loud, amps should be sized to provide a commanding grip on the speakers in order to provide sufficient dynamics, especially for reproduction of bass.)

Conventional wisdom says ported designs must be placed 30 cm or more from walls/etc. But from what I know of air pressures, imaging would be a much bigger factor.

Have fun and let us know how it goes.

the power supply recomended to me specs as follows:
12vdc , current output- 500ma., power output - 6.OVA It doesmt mean anyhting to me as i am not technical but I am assuming its important to get the right one.I tried emailing sonic impact but the email function on their site isnt working

miklorsmith · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 03:44 pm »

As a firm believer in single-driver speakers . . .

They will sound different from everything else. Many love them and many others do not. If you must jump in with a purchase, as opposed to auditioning, try to minimize your risk. Buying used will help with this.

Be aware that single driver speakers generally display a rising response in the upper midrange and lower treble. This can be addressed in various ways. GHM and JLM have lower-efficiency transmission lines that are reported to provide excellent bass with a flat-ish response curve. This is NOT typical of the breed.

Most single-drivers will get honky if agitated. Play some old Van Halen and see what I mean. Some response smoothing is needed with many designs, which will lower efficiency and at least some of the "breath of life" that SD'ers are known for.

Horns are another method of extending SD bass response to fill in with the tipped upper ranges.

My opinion is that the variations in sound between SD speakers is greater than you would find between similarly situated conventional speakers. System matching is critical. If you just throw a few components together and hope for the best, I seriously doubt you'll be satisfied in the long term.

Example - My homebuilt Fostex 206E bass reflex boxes were most unhappy with a fast, neutral 6-watt digital amp. My Zu Druids absolutely loved it. The 206s were hyperfast in the mid and upper reaches but light in the bass. The Druids were warmish and appreciated the speed and neutrality of the Clari-T. The 206's would mate very nicely with a warm 300B amp, but that same amp would be underpowered for GHM's and JLM's transmission lines.

See what I mean?

JLM · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 05:44 pm »

Sorry, I'm not "electrical" either, but I believe that the amperage is key here.

Miklorsmith offers good advice (some of which I ran out of time to include). Single driver speakers have their shortcomings, namely limited output and frequency range. The frequency range boils down to limited dispersion of higher frequencies (beaming like a flashlight) and just plan lack of bass (this is where the more exotic, and often large, cabinet designs come in). Extended range drivers typically have limited back and forth travel (Xmax) which naturally limits how much air they can push and therefore how loud they can get.

OTOH nearly any small speaker will have limited bass and output. And the beaming can be used to your benefit, to tune down a "hot" driver by simply pointing it away from the listening position. Beaming can also be useful to minimize room reflections (interactions). Yes, many extended range drivers do have a rising response (louder at higher frequencies).

Decades ago all amps were tube designs and therefore low output, which dictated efficient speakers. Efficient speakers are typically "colored" (various distortions such as "warm" or "honky") due to the drivers themselves or the enclosures. Careful tube "matching" can "synergize" with these characteristics.

I'm not surprised that most of the audio "straights" (those who don't know or have never heard an single driver system) would offer that kind of response.

BTW those Jordan 92S drivers are the classic small extended range drivers, however they are neither inexpensive nor do they quite live up to their manufacturer's rather optimistic specifications). Enclosures do make a difference (primarily below 300 HZ), but negligibly as it applies to the various shapes/proportions of a rectangular sealed or ported box.

Don Maico · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 06:22 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 6 Nov 2006, 03:44 pm

As a firm believer in single-driver speakers . . .

They will sound different from everything else. Many love them and many others do not. If you must jump in with a purchase, as opposed to auditioning, try to minimize your risk. Buying used will help with this.

Be aware that single driver speakers generally display a rising response in the upper midrange and lower treble. This can be addressed in various ways. GHM and JLM have lower-efficiency transmission lines that are reported to provide excellent bass with a flat-ish response curve. This is NOT typical of the breed.

Most single-drivers will get honky if agitated. Play some old Van Halen and see what I mean. Some response smoothing is needed with many designs, which will lower efficiency and at least some of the "breath of life" that SD'ers are known for.

Horns are another method of extending SD bass response to fill in with the tipped upper ranges.

My opinion is that the variations in sound between SD speakers is greater than you would find between similarly situated conventional speakers. System matching is critical. If you just throw a few components together and hope for the best, I seriously doubt you'll be satisfied in the long term.

Example - My homebuilt Fostex 206E bass reflex boxes were most unhappy with a fast, neutral 6-watt digital amp. My Zu Druids absolutely loved it. The 206s were hyperfast in the mid and upper reaches but light in the bass. The Druids were warmish and appreciated the speed and neutrality of the Clari-T. The 206's would mate very nicely with a warm 300B amp, but that same amp would be underpowered for GHM's and JLM's transmission lines.

See what I mean?

:oops:i have done it now having bought a pair oF Diamonds and Super T Sonic Impact which i will use with a Mac, iPod and cd player. Thing is Jan Plummer recommends and even sells the Sonic Impact T( cheaper version) and his Diamonds as a package so I am assuming they work well together

. Anyway I shall email him.Thanks for your input btw.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 06:29 pm »

I don't know anything about those speakers, but they are reported above to be an easier match than some other single-drivers. It sounds like they also have less preternatural midrange energy (which can be a very, very good thing).

Good luck!

Don Maico · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 07:07 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 6 Nov 2006, 06:29 pm

I don't know anything about those speakers, but they are reported above to be an easier match than some other single-drivers. It sounds like they also have less preternatural midrange energy (which can be a very, very good thing).

Good luck!

Thanks

Don Maico · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Nov 2006, 09:52 am »

Just took receipt of my Diamonds to day and have been well impressed so far. They need warming up mind and a decent amp as well - (the S.I has not arrived yet- they reckon 4-17 days delivery

)I am using a very aged HK PM650 for the moment. The Diamonds would be much better with a sub - a passive one coupled with a sub base but at a combined price of $1250 they'll have to wait a while

http://www.tbisound.com/dsp_products_subwmagvisu.asp
http://www.tbisound.com/dsp_products_subwtbi200.asp