[Russell Dawkins]

I recently bought a pair of SP Technology Timepiece 2.1s to replace my aging 15" Tannoys in my studio mastering set up. I listen to them at a distance of 6 feet (midfield, in the parlance). At the same time, thinking I needed also to upgrade my amplification, I bought a pair of Nuforce ref 9SEs, being assured by a few advisors that they were up to the task.

I suspect that they are not.

The Timepieces are not only power hungry, they are also an 8 ohm load, and almost all solid state and digital amps are optimized for 4 ohms, unfortunately, Nuforce not excepted. Whereas I do like the sound of the Nuforces, compared to what I am used to, I get the distinct impression that the TPs would like a bunch more power to really "open up" on loud and complex orchestral peaks, for example. In other words, there comes a point (a little too early for my taste) where things start to get "louder" instead of "bigger" in turning up the volume, if you know what I mean.

Given that the Nuforces are rated at 150 W into 8 ohms, albeit with 3 dB of headroom, I am thinking that what I need is an amp that will deliver (with the same 3 dB of headroom) at least 300 W, preferably 500 - 700 W into 8 ohms. This apparently leaves tubes out of the picture.

A few contenders seem to exist. To my knowledge they include Jeff Rowland model 501 (550 W into 8 ohms), a pair of Belles 150As bridged, (again 500 W into 8 ohms), the Dussun V8i (only 250 W, but reputed to perform like much more) and (wild card) the Crown Macro Reference (750 W into 8 ohms)

The McCormack DNA 500 would probably work a treat but, even second hand I don't think I could swing it and the Rowland and Belles would be a budget stretch.

So one part of my question is - has design of solid state improved over the years to the point that the Crown which in its day was called the best amp on the planet is now eclipsed by most modern amps? I can get one for $1250 but I can also get a Dussun for similar money. I wonder how they would compare.

Two considerations:
1. I have learned that my subwoofer set up (I use a pair of Hsu subs from 35 Hz down) requires a conventional amp in that the passive crossover takes its feed from the speaker outputs and will not work with class D because of the floating nature of the speaker outs. I'd rather not get into changing to powered subs at this time, partly because the Hsus integrate perfectly with the Timepieces.
2. I think the sound of an amp not straining has to take priority over the last bit of refinement - that is I am forced to sacrifice a little finesse in the interest of fully adequate power.

Lest you get the wrong impression, I am only trying to get real-life levels, not higher, but for the speakers not to sound strained at those levels I need to have a fair amount of surplus power in hand. As an aside, this reminds me of a finding by Hi Fi News years ago that one of the performance characteristics that define a particular amplifier's sound is its recovery from clipping, and that is because in fact amps are slightly clipping quite often when played moderately loud, so that enters into the equation more than most users realize. The corollary is that the sensation of effortlessness is mainly the lack of the sound of clipping recovery, i.e. the sound of adequate power reserves.

I've got to say, this makes me yearn for small tube amps and efficient drivers in an open baffle!

Don't get me wrong, I think the Timepieces, with enough power, will suit my needs perfectly, those needs being extreme tonal accuracy, particularly through the entire lower midrange and bass. The quality I am hearing in that region is superb - just need more of it!

So, if anyone has any suggestions I'd be glad to hear them.

Thanks for reading.

Russell

[lonewolfny42]

A few contenders seem to exist. To my knowledge they include Jeff Rowland model 501 (550 W into 8 ohms), a pair of Belles 150As bridged, (again 500 W into 8 ohms), the Dussun V8i (only 250 W, but reputed to perform like much more) and (wild card) the Crown Macro Reference (750 W into .

The McCormack DNA 500 would probably work a treat but, even second hand I don't think I could swing it and the Rowland and Belles would be a budget stretch.

Hello Russell,
       Power, power, power.....thats what the TP's call for. From you picks, this is how I'd rank them...
1 - McCormack DNA 500
2 - Belles 150As bridged
3 - Jeff Rowland model 501
4 - Dussun V8i

I've heard all four....but not the Crown Macro Reference .....I think zybar / George had a Crown at one time.The McCormack and Rowland I heard were once owned by George....Belles heard in CO.....Dussin was at a Rave. I really enjoyed the McCormack....did have better bass than my Butler 2250's....but similar with mids and high's.
What's the budget ?

                                       Chris

[Russell Dawkins]

What's the budget ?

                                       Chris

About $3000-3500. Less would be nice, that's why I'm wondering about the Dussun. I am wondering how much refinement you are sacrificing to get that much power for the price - and are they as powerful as certain reports would indicate?
I know that 250 true class A watts are a bit like tube watts - they can sound like twice the rating, and if that's the case then the Dussun would have enough power. Question is - could I stand the sound!

[lonewolfny42]

I ranked the Dussun fourth....power yes....refinement so-so.
A used DNA-500 about $3,800. to $4,000.00  range on Audiogon.
Belles in mono block form.....$6,000.00  list price. I have not seen any come up used on Audiogon....but I may have missed it.
Latest and greatest....getting attention....the Moscode. Heard at RMAF....but the setup was just ok. Check with some new owner's here for their comments in a better system.

                                     Chris

[warnerwh]

You could get a pair of Parasound JC 1's used for 3,500. Do get the high power. I've learned it's better to have plenty, more than you'll ever use and run it in a relaxed mode than push a smaller amp near or over it's limits. It sounds better to me.

If you don't have room for two giant monoblocks a used Classe CA 301 or CA 300 or CA 400 would do the job and be much less than you're willing to spend. These are very heavy amps weighing well over 100 pounds each. I like the sound of their amps and have noticed a number of speaker designers have or do use them. They're made very well and if for any reason you don't like it you can sell it and not lose any money.

Current capability is also excellent with Classe as well as their customer service. The CA 201 may be enough power actually as it won't flinch in the least with about any load you put on it.

If you'll consider a hybrid the Van Alstine Fetvalve 550 is excellent. This amp Frank once wrote will make your cd's sound better. I thought "what a load of bull shit". Now I use one running the planar/ribbon section of my Rm 40's and love it. It did exactly what Frank said it would, make my cd's sound better. It somehow sounds unusually clean and richer. This amp makes instruments and voices sound more real. Two other guys I know, one who owned it and another who's a friend, described it's sound to me the same way I described it to you. Both are members here.

If I were you I'd start with a Classe which can be had for much less than you're willing to spend and see how it works.

[Russell Dawkins]

thanks, warnerwh and Chris.

I guess I should mention that I actually favor monoblocks or, at least, two amps since it makes speaker cabling simpler and I am from the short speaker wire / longer interconnect camp.

Also, size doesn't matter really, although the small size of the Nuforce was appealing. There is a part of me that subscribes to the old car talk notion that "there ain't no sustitute for cubes".

I also have no predjudice against hybrids - in fact I think they make sense. Best of both worlds, with tubes doing what they do best and transistors likewise. In fact I would imagine the Moscode depends on that. Tube vitality and solid state control.

Thanks for the Van Alstine Fetvalve 550 and Classé tip, too, warnerwh, I'll check them out.

One factor that skews considerations for me is that I can often get deep discounts (up to 50%) from conventional mainsteam manufacturers because of the professional use thing, but of course get no discount when buying secondhand and almost none when buying from companies whose sole business is direct and web based.

[accentstryping]

I have a Counterpoint SA220 that might just work for you, and its resonably priced, we might even be able to work out some kind of trade.
                                                              MMM

[amplifierguru]

Hi Russel,

You want Hi End at a value price - why not build it yourself!  You're not then paying for brand name hype - and developing a skill, which for an afflicted audiophile can only be a big + going forward!

Cheers,
Greg 

[Karsten]

Hi Russell,

Have you tried to measure the actual SPL you are getting? One thing with the SP speakers is that the distortion is very low, this can fool the ear to percive that it is not very loud. Sometimes I have to talk to myself to get an idea about how loud it really is  aa

Anyway, you are right. A lot of power does some good things...... A good compromise between power and finess is the Belles 350A Reference. A couple of bridged 150A References will do the trick as well but I find the 350AR sweeter sounding with plenty of impact. You can check the fresh review here:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/belles_350a_reference.htm

Best regards,
Karsten

[Kevin Haskins]

The Hypex UcD700s are awesome if your willing to fabricate something.   If not just wait a couple months and I'll have complete monoblocks avaible for just around $2K a pair.   

That gives you all the power your ever going to need and the UcD amps are a proven solution.

[TomS]

Anyone tried the Odyssey Extreme SE Mono's on the TP's?  They fit the price range and are built like tanks.

[Bob Reynolds]

ATI doesn't have the name recognition in the high-end, but SL uses them for his Orion speakers. You  might consider a 4-channel (200 W each) AT2004 http://www.ati-amp.com/at2000.html and passive biamp for $2100. Or even more can be had with the AT3004 (300 W each) for $2800.

You could add modules to drive the Hsu subs as well.

FWIW, I replaced a Decware SET Zen amp with an ATI AT602 driving a pair of 4 ohm M&K nearfield monitors and noticed no difference from the amp swap.

[klh]

Check out Kevin's amps on his DIY CABLE circle. 400 watts per channel and well within the ballpark set above. He has a great sale going on now for AC members.

[ooheadsoo]

400w is into 4 ohms, but the TP are 8 ohms.  I think the ucd output is around 200w for 8 ohms, not quite what I'd imagine I would prefer for the TP.  I think that's why Kevin posted here about the upcoming ucd700, which is probably 350w+ into 8 ohms.

[mfsoa]

Is 8 ohms really 8 ohms, though?
Some speakers listed as 8 dip down much lower in the bass region.
Yours could be 8 at much easier to drive frequencies, but may only need the juice at freq where the impedence is much lower.

Sorry if this is rudimental - I'm not familiar with those speakers

[WEEZ]

I don't know much about class D amplifiers (or digital recording either  )...but in the more conventional realm, I would seriously look into a pair of AVA amps with a bridge (also from AVA- check the website www.avahifi.com). The Ultra hybrid amps would have a bit more 'finesse' than the Omegastars, but either would get you to 700+ watts per channel @ 8 ohms.

Are you really sure it's a power problem, though?... some amplifiers 'deliver' better than others in the real world. Can't explain it  . Guess that some amps clip more gracefully than others. (for example, tubes and mosfets, at least in my experience)

good luck

WEEZ

[GHM]

How about a Classe ? Like the Classe M 700 Monoblocks.
The amp's rated output are 700 watts into 8 ohms, 1400 into 4 ohms.
A pair just sold on Agon for $2500.

[klh]

Sorry... completely missed Kevin's post .

[shokunin]

Now i have the original versin of TP2.0, old tweeter, old woofers, old everything, which is supposedly more power hungry.  I use these in my office with a 5W tube amp and it's perfect for my 60-70db office listening pleasure from 2-3' away.   The speakers are very linear and do extremely well at low volume.  How loud do you like to listen at and how large is your room?  Does you room tend to sound dead or alive?

Send Mike Garner at Tweekgeek an email, he may still be using his Timepieces along with the Nuforce amps.

Glenn

[shokunin]

Hah, I just remembered in one of our SoCal audio sessions that we burned out a Nuforce Ref 8 on Mike's Timepieces... hopefully the 9's are better built.