[Deviouswag]

Hi all,
I've been lurking for a while and finally decided to take the plunge. I built a pair of Jordan VTL's this summer and happened upon the Darkstar thread a few weeks later. I have been following the original thread and now the new forum with keen interest.  Eventually, the Jordan's proved too bright and curiosity got the better of me. B200's were ordered and now sit secured to hinged open baffles (14"-10"-12" x 48" tall) in my listening room.

The results thus far have been mixed. I can hear the strengths of these drivers. Often; however, I'm also dealing with high frequency brightness that is unexceptable. These strengths and weaknesses can often be heard in the same song. My typical cruising level is between 80 and 85 db's. That's not possible at the moment with these speakers. Food for thought, my reference speakers are Totem Staffs. I read a fews times that these seem bright to some folks. They've alway been very good in my system. What to do next?

I've ordered the parts for the inductor/resistor circuit mentioned in MOX threas. They should arrive in a few days. Any other tips would be greatly appreciated. I'd really like this to work out as the good aspects are really scary good. Some system info.:

24 watt El-34 based amp.
Room dims are admittedly small....11' w x 13' l x 9' h

Thanks in advance,

Jon

[jkelly]

That circuit will warm them up nicely.

Jeff

[markC]

I do believe that once you put the notch filter in place the offending high's will be tamed.
Don't expect them to do low bass on their own though. I have found through a reasonable amount of time with them, that with the filter in place they do reproduce bass clean and coherant, and due to the slow roll-off quite present, but just not as prominent as one would like, (rolled off).
In my system, it's not the "highs" that were overly bright , but the upper mid range.
Your baffle size seems to me to be able to support the lower mid range, which IMO is very important with the B200's.

[corloc]

Hi Jon,

How long have your B200's been running?  The first 10 hrs. were miserable, way too bright and no bass.  After about 60 everything smoothed out, and by 100 hrs. changes were mostly subjective.  You might want to try smaller wings. maybe 7" and 10".  You'll loose some bass, but the mids and high should intagrate better with the back wave.

I first had my B200's in a 10" x 10" x 7.5".  Now in a 10" x 16" x 8", because I was useing 15" drivers rooled out about 200hz.  I like the smaller baffle, and I'm gong to but the 15" on a separate baffel with a plate amp.

The big thing is experiment.

Chris

[ChuckT]

Hi Jon,

I too have the Jordan jx92s in a MLTL, couldn't get it work for me either.  So I don't really understand all the raving over at diyaudio, maybe it is my box.
Anyways, my opinion is the B200 sounds better then the Jordan.  And it'll improve much more with the coil and some burn-in.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Jon, I myself have never heard B200's however, I have read in numerous threads/posts that burn in is crucial with these drivers. If I had a pair, I'd leave them running all day and night for awhile, then give them another evaluation.
Installing circuitry before burn in may end up being frustrating since you'll be "chasing" the sound.

Bob

[Deviouswag]

Thanks for the input. It's very appreciated. Sounds like patience and experimentation are the order of the day. So, while I'm waiting on those circuit parts, I'm going to read up on those Augies some guys are   talking about....after I listen to some tunes.

Jon

[fergs1]

greetings Ladies and Gentlemen, I just thought I'd share my experience with the b200 for Jon's sake. I personally didn't have any luck with the inductor/resistor circuit feeling like it just killed the attack and destroyed the imaging. I used 1mh/5.6ohm combo(mundorf coil and mox resistor). It is my opinion that the b200 should be run in conjunction with a sub crossed  at 150hz on a baffle no wider than 450 wide as per nigel(mr content) design and I am enjoying a smooth response, dynamic character with a spectacular soundstage(deep and wide) as well as pin point imaging.I am running the b200 with a 300b se and a cheap plate amp on the sub, although I am about to start the charlize journey so I'm open minded.  I have thankfully moved my attention from my speakers(I dont feel I can improve upon them regardless of cost) and started to think about source(cd phono). the speakers In this configuration are extremley satisfying, conecting me back to the music once more which is why we are into it.I literally lose myself in the music with I'm very thankfull for.
                                                           peace and goodwill  fergs

[Bob in St. Louis]

I'm going to read up on those Augies some guys are talking about

....mine are "enroute"  aa

When your ready, here's the main site:
http://hawthorneaudio.com/

And the forum:
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forum/

See you there 
Bob

[MJK]

Why buy an Augie instead of the Alpha 15A?  They are both built be Eminence and have very similar specs. The biggest difference seems to be the significantly higher cost of the Augie.  If you are only using the 15" driver for the very low bass I just don't see any real advantages, you could spend your money on something else that would have a bigger performance benefit.

[Brad]

The specs look quite a bit different (to this admitted novice)

Fs is 27hz for the Augie, 41hz for the 15a
Sensitivity is 88.7db for the Augie, 97db for the 15a
Q was .92 for Augie, 1.2 for the 15a
Magnet weight was 69oz vs 25oz

I could be reading things wrong (okay, Dennis Miller) - can someone else take a look?

thx

[MJK]

Fs is 27hz for the Augie, 41hz for the 15a

True, but unless you are going to build a huge baffle this will not really matter.  My baffle is 60" wide by 48" tall and with two A15 I get to 40 Hz.  I am not sure this is significant.

Sensitivity is 88.7db for the Augie, 97db for the 15a

Actually thr Alpha is closer to 95 dB below 100 Hz.  But the higher efficiency is an advantage to stretch the low end lower in a smaller baffle.

Q was .92 for Augie, 1.2 for the 15a

Essentially the same in my opinion.  Actually my Alphas measured between 1.0 and 1.1.

Magnet weight was 69oz vs 25oz

That is probably why the cost is about 3 times more.  But for bass below a couple hundred Hz, I am not sure it helps you a whole bunch.  For the cost of an Augie and a B200, I think using a less expensive Alpha woofer and a more expensive full range driver would be a better use of the budget and provide higher performance.

[Brad]

Martin - thanks for the explanation.
In going over the specs, to me it appeared the Alpha more closely matched the woofer in the Hawthorne Coax.

It didn't appear to me that the Alpha would go much lower than the Coax, but I understand your comment about the baffle reinforcing the bass.  From my limited knowledge, I was under the impression the Augie would go quite a bit lower.

Cheers,

Brad in Houston

[MJK]

Brad,

The Alpha is very similar, if not identical, to the coax woofer.  But if you need to add a second woofer, I would use the Alpha over the Augie.  The baffle size is going to determine to a large extent how low the bass will go and the driver is almost secondary.  If your baffle is smaller and starts to roll off at 200 Hz, having a low fs for the woofer is probably not as effective as having a higher fs, Qts and efficiency.  That and the cost difference is why I question the driver selection, but it is not my money or design so people can decide for themselves.

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Fs is 27hz for the Augie, 41hz for the 15a

True, but unless you are going to build a huge baffle this will not really matter.  My baffle is 60" wide by 48" tall and with two A15 I get to 40 Hz.  I am not sure this is significant.

Hey Martin,

The Augie will play flat at 30 hz on my baffles with no eq. The baffle is 19 inches wide in front with tapered 6 inch wings on each side and 36 inches tall. The Augies were designed to add bass to any driver that needs help below 150 Hz, or maybe even higher, and extending down to 30 Hz. The control is excellent, even  toward both extremes of it's range.
The bass driver on the SI Coaxial was based somewhat on the Alpha 15, with a few mods. The Augies are intended to take this down substantially, adding both extension and that "power kick" that isn't quite as good with just the Coaxial.
I heard the Alpha 15's in my room on a similar sized baffle a couple of years back. We measured around 50 Hz below which it rolled off fast. The Augie shows a similar roll-off staring just below 30 Hz.

Dave

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Here’s some more on the Augie vs Alpha>

Alpha  Xmax   3.88 MM 
 
Augie Xmax   7.15MM
 
Alpha      stamped basket
 
Augie      Cast
 
Augie Large copper shorting ring on the vented core

Augie  Long excursion poly/cotton cloth surround

Augie Kevlar Reinforced Paper Cone Body w/mass plug

Augie Knurled binding posts

All of these add to the cost difference....

Using an active xo, dedicated amp and possible EQ makes roll off a moot point ... want more bass turn up the gain relative to the mains.....Not flat... eq  ..
 With the heavy duty motor structure  and much larger Xmax potential the Augie can simply displace more air before bottoming out.... Watts are cheap so no consideration is needed for Sensitivity
 
That's why it cost 3 times as much.

I'm somewhat "inside the loop" on these and know the story behind their development. The Augie is not some re-badge of an existing product. It was developed for one purpose only.... to excel in OB.
 
When asked to build the ultimate OB augmentation driver, this is what the Engineers at Eminence determined to be the best approach given their extensive knowledge of driver design. There is no other driver that can claim this that I am aware of. The Augie was designed primarily to  fill in under the Silver Iris coaxial . In other words crossed in at about 45hz and being able to handle all bass duties below this point including the low bass information in movies... The Alpha on the other hand will simply run out of Xmax and would continously bottom out when asked to do the same material.
 Effortlessness and articulation come from operating a driver in it's performance band  not from designing a system to operate at it's theoretical limits... Over engineering is the preferred method for all high performance gear and the Augie is no exception.

IMHO, there is no contest between the two. Youse gets what youse pays for...

Dave

[MJK]

Dave,

In my application, running below 200 Hz and mating to a Lowther, I am not sure any of those items you list matter.  What does matter to me is the Augie's 89 dB efficiency compared to the Alphas 95 dB efficiency and the $100+ per driver price difference.   My other Dayton 15" drivers had some of these features, an equivalent cost, a much lower Qts so not exactly an apples to apples, and I still like the Alphas better.  I am sorry, but I am not convinced enough to try Augies and will stick with the Alphas.  Everybody has to make their own choice.

[Brad]

Martin, I can certainly see how the Alpha makes more sense at the $60-70 price point for your system than the Augie at $165 each, crossing over at 200hz

For those using the SI coax which already does what the Alpha woofer does, the Augie makes sense (IMO) to go lower with more authority.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Everybody has to make their own choice.

I have. I chose the Augie for a couple reasons.
I've nowhere near the experience and intelligence level as most of you, so I am almost completely reliant on "you guys" giving me your opinions. That being said, I've seen much more written on the Augie's compaired to the Alpha, and 99% of it was positive. Another reason for my choice was that they were created to complement the SI's, which means, again, less research for me. Someone has done it already. The research has been done. I don't have to work out the compatability issues mixing drivers.
I get to play with the final tuning/adjustments for my "individuality" and my particular room, but that's minor.
The Augie's have not arrived as of yet, so I have no comment on the sound, but if they perform like the SI's, then a lot of you are going to get tired of reading my praises for Hawthorne drivers.

Bob

[MJK]

It is your choice and I really hope it works out for you guys with the Augies.  It is an interesting set of trade-offs.  Unfortunately, I doubt I will ever get to try the two drivers and make an independent side by side listening assessment.