[geofstro]

I've had my Sig 30 for a few weeks now and in that time I've managed to put it through its paces in more ways than one. Excepting that in all this time I'm probably only just hovering around the 100 hour mark at the moment.

When I first hooked up the Siggie to my Gallo Ref 3's my immediate impression was "wow, I now understand why these speakers are so good at doing the disappearing act. Instruments no longer seemed to emanate from the speakers themselves; but rather from where they're supposed to naturally appear, depending on the recording in question.

In the room where I have the Gallos, which is long and narrow with a high ceiling and wooden floors I found the Gallos a real pain to set up to get the imaging as good as I could manage. That was before I installed the Siggie. It wasn't until I replaced my Teac with the Siggie that all that hard work seemed to pay off though. Apart from these observations concerning imaging, which were obvious, I didn't pay too much attention to the sound, since I knew the Siggie was at the start of its burn in. I just ran the radio through it all day. I couldn't help noting that the sound was overall more natural than prior to installing the Siggie.

Following this I went to the HiFi show in London where I encountered the new awesome Overkill system and met its designer Derek Wilson. Following that, Derek invited me to his place to hear the system again, and I couldn't resist taking the Siggie with me. He was in agreement with trying it on the Manger drivers which handle the critical frequencies from 300hz upwards.

The Overkill encore system has been reviewed in 6 Moons and it runs at $75,000. What he was demming in London though was a new system, which utilizes the Manger driver in conjunction with some fast SEAS drivers to handle the lower frequencies, down to about 35hz, in a gorgeous clear Acrylic open baffle. Yes, Open Baffle, folks and that's what drew me to his room at the show in the first place. I hadn't encountered the Manger drivers before, though, so these came as some surprise. These drivers are close to full range and sound smoother and more extended than other full range drivers, such as the Lowther that I like so much. In fact I believe, that on paper they go up to 35khz and in the other direction, extend to 85hz. Derek chooses to cross them over at 300hz, however, which is where the two SEAS drivers, run in parallel, takeover. The Manger driver is notoriously difficult to get working to its full potential. Derek seems to be the one to have achieved this with his elaborate and costly enclosures, which are detailed in the 6moons review. As others have noted on the Audiogon forum, it is also necessary to employ DSP to realize their full potential. Derek makes use of the DEQX for both digital crossover between the Mangers and the SEAS bass drivers, and also for room correction.

At both the show and his home Derek chose to use the Tom Evans Linear A, SET tube amp, on the Mangers and a Belles solid state amp for the bass. The result, in conjunction with the DEQX is awesome in terms of natural realism and no apparent distortion. The Tom Evans amp is around 5 times the cost of the Siggie, so Vinnies amp was up against some stiff competition and it hadn't reached the 100 hour mark yet.

One area where Vinnies' amp definately excelled was in robustness. I'm referring here to the plane journey from the South of France where I live to London. I was hoping to take it in the cabin with me, since it fitted neatly into my pilot case, with plenty of bubble wrap around it. Unfortunately the security staff at Nice saw the SLA batteries on the scanner and made me check it into the luggage hold. At the other end, I waited with trepidation until I spotted my precious Sig 30 tumble onto the baggage conveyor. When I got to my hotel, I hastily unwrapped it and hooked its charger up to the mains and everything seemed fine.

At Derek's place, we swapped the Tom Evans amp for the Sig 30 on the Manger drivers. No folks, I'm not going to report that it stomped all over the Tom Evans, as some of you may be hoping. Compared to the Tom Evans, it sounded a little thin and edgy. This was especially apparent on a particularly gravelly sounding male vocal. However, the magic of DSP is that you can fix anything (well almost). Derek had already gone to the trouble of doing room correction with the Sig 30 in place and creating a custom profile named "Red Wine Audio". After the initial result was a little disappointing, he tweaked this custom profile and ameliorated the edginess and the sound became richer and more natural.

We both concluded, that after this tweak the Sig 30 was not a huge drop from the Tom Evans and remember it probably only had around 70-80 hours on it by this stage.

We then did another swap over. This time putting the Tom Evans back on the Manger drivers and employing the Sig 30 to drive the bass units. At first Derek remarked that he found the bass a little "woolly". Again though, with a magic tweak on the DEQX this problem disappeared and Derek was now quite happy with the result on the bass.

As Srajan remarked in his review of the Overkill Encore system, using DSP in the form of a device like the DEQX, is the future. For those of us who grew up with Analog and the idea of keeping the signal as pure and simple as possible, the future can be a little scary though. As most of us are aware you can actually improve the sound by using DSP just as you can dramatically improve photos using Photoshop. However, I think it's important to bear in mind that DSP can't cure everything. As with a photo, if you start out with a crappy original, there's a limit to just how far you can go. If Vinnies' amp wasn't as good as it was, we would never have achieved the result we did on both the Manger drivers and the bass. If we had more time to tweak with the DEQX we might have got even better results.

The DEQX used in this configuration, as a pre-amplifier with analog outs, is also a limiting factor. As Srajan also noted in his Overkill review, the power supplies on the DEQX leave a lot to be desired. Overkill are also going to be offering a version with much improved power supplies and Derek feels the difference between that version and the standard version would exceed the differences between these high quality amps.

When I got my Sig 30 back home, again thankfully unscathed by the vagaries of baggage handling, I tried it out again in various configurations.

1. Using the Fi-Y (designed to complement the Fi-X) tube pre-amp into to the Sig 30 driving Gallo Ref 3's

2. Using my JADIS JPL tube pre-amp into the Sig 30 driving my Rethm 2nd Lowther DX4 speakers.

3. Using my Museatex BIDAT straight into the Sig 30, driving the Rethms.

Reverse this order and you have my clear preference. I really thought the Jadis pre-amp would be awesome into the Sig 30 and would be my preference, since it sounds wonderful into Jadis' own JA80 Class A Tube monoblocks; but no, the Sig 30, fed by the Bidat, driving my Rethms was my clear preference.

In this combination I found the Sig 30 met the criteria I'm always looking for. Which is to be able to forget you're listening to electronics. The sound was pure and natural stripped of any electronic artifacts that, may be termed , thin, dry, grainy, etc. The same comments apply when I use the Altmann DAC straight into the Sig 30 to drive my Gallos.

You may choose to use your Sig 30 with a pre-amp, tube or otherwise, to add flavor, obtain more gain, or to provide switching between different inputs. I can only echo, what I believe has been said here before, by Vinnie and others. Do please try the Sig 30 fed directly by a source first. If you need switching capabilities only, Vinnie now has a reasonably priced    unit that won't detract from the purity of the sound.

geoff

[studley]

Geoff

I was very interested in your post for the following reasons.  There are a growing number of people who regard the Tom Evans amps as the best on the planet and if I had the money I'd buy a pair of his Linear B monoblocks.  However I don't and instead I've ordered a pair of Signature 70 monos based purely on feedback from Signature 30 owners like yourself.  Its a shame your 30 was not fully burned in when you did the comparison - it would have been really interesting to hear about that comparison with the Linear A. 

I am really looking forward to getting the 70s which Vinnie tells us are even better than the 30.

Ian

[Paul_Bui]

Very nice write-up, Geoff.  Thanks.  Now if I could persuade wifey about getting a Siggie, or better yet a pair of them.

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Geoff,

Wow!  Nice post and thank you for taking all the time to listen and post about your Signature 30 experiences so far! 

I agree about trying out running your source directly into the Signature 30 (or 70s!)... this is the way I do it.  The trick is to find a source that you really like the sound of.  Then, you won't want to color it with a preamp 

When I sent a Sig 30 to 6moons for review, I already had close to 100 hours of burn-in on it.  I have found that it does get even better by 200 hours, so I'd love to hear your impressions when you get to that point too!

Thanks again,

Vinnie

[geofstro]

It is very unfortunate I hadn't clocked up 100 hours before making this comparison. I've been travelling a lot and that's the reason.

I believe the DEQX with it's standard power supply is itself, quite dry sounding. Probably the Tom Evans is so liquid it helps to compensate. Additionally the system had been painstakingly tuned and voiced with the Tom Evans. Dereks' wife Petra did the voicing and she is a musician herself. Obviously we didn't have time to go to those lengths with the Sig 30 (and Petra went out shopping, leaving us guys to it).

The Tom Evans Linear A is an awesome amp though and it cost five times more than the Sig 30, so I'd be shocked if the Sig 30 equalled or beat it, even with 100 plus hours and extra tweaking. However, they probably would be closer, and they weren't that far apart, in the sense that certainly I could have lived with the Sig 30 in this system, if it were just a touch more liquid.

I hope to have a Tom Evans on hand here for further comparison in the not too distant future.

One disadvantage is that it's a must to use shielded cable between it and the preamp, as noted in its own 6moons review. And, of course, shielded doesn't tend to sound as good as unshielded.

Investigations will be continuing 

geoff

[budbrew]

Great, informative commentary. I've briefly heard the TEA amp and it is a good one. But at the time I had been used to a more full-sounding tube amp and in the that context the TEA sounded thin. But my preference has shifted and today it probably would sound about right.

I have the Sig 30 and I've been working on getting it right. I really enjoy it a lot  Mostly, I've been using it direct. Early on I used it with a tube preamp that seemed to fill out the sound more and provide additional gain, but took away too much in transparency. After over 100 hours I went back to the Sig 30 direct and over time it had filled out. I preferred it direct. But on some albums I am very familiar with I knew that not all of the music was getting through, some of the quieter details. This was most apparent at low volumes (a new baby dictates quiet listening most of the time). Lately, as a reference point, I've been using a Leben CS300x EL-84 integrated in place of the Sig 30. The extra gain does indeed help, in the context of my system! And perhaps in the end I prefer the sound of tubes, colored or not. The EL-84s are musical, nicely punchy tubes. So I'm considering looking into other tube preamps to try with the Sig 30. I absolutely love the sound of the Sig 30 direct, but with my Audio Note speakers I need some additional gain. Hopefully soon I can demo the Shindo Aurieges-L preamp, which should provide the added gain while preserving transparency, if the online commentaries are at all correct. 

I also have the Sig 3s and while it does not take away any transparency I find that I do have to turn the volume on the Sig 30 up one notch to get the same level as going direct.

The Sig 30 is one of my favorite amps to date. I just need to find the right synergy to get it to show its best.

[budbrew]

Based on this post and with some time today to futz with the stereo and put back in the Sig 30. Absolutely the way to go! But I do believe I still need to find a tube preamp to match with the amp. The added gain would be appreciated.

[Paul_Bui]

Might want to look at an SinglePower head-amp used as preamp.

[geofstro]

Here's a tube pre-amp that might work well with the Sig 30, since it's also battery powered, and reported to be silent, when not playing music, of course 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=32387.0

I have one on order and I'll try it with the Sig 30 and report how it works out.

geoff

[tianguis]

geofstro:

        The Dodd pre is a stunning piece, both visually and sonically. Heard it at RMAF.
        I found the report of pairing the Sig 30 with Derek's speaks very interesting as I thought the Sig 30 would mate very well with Mangers. I'm using a pair of Overkill Audio Ovations, which are the truncated pyramids from several years ago. I use ICEpower on top and Rotel on the bass, with TacT RCS.
        I'm glad to hear Derek is still pursuing Manger implementations. I love the driver.

Regards,
Larry Welsh

[geofstro]

Thanks Larry, that's encouraging, since I've been waiting since August for the Dodd and it sounds like the wait will be worthwhile.

Derek seems to be the only guy to have implemented the Mangers properly, although others have tried.

Geoff

[tianguis]

Geoff:

      I heard the Manger Zero Box at RMAF and was underwhelmed. If the second driver isn't well-integrated it kills what the Manger does so well. After some months with the Ovations, I'm still messing about with X-O points and room EQ. But, I'm very close. 

Larry

[geofstro]

I've only heard the Mangers in Dereks new Angel speakers. From what I've read on the Web, although the Mangers can go as low as 85hz they probably sound their best XO'd at 250 or 300hz. What are you using on the Ovations?

Also, according to Derek they need an enclosure that correctly absorbs the back wave, which MDF boxes cannot do. If this is the case, the only enclosure offered by Manger themselves that I think might work is 'The Swing'.

I'll be interested to read your opinion of the Sig 30 or Sig 70's on the Ovation Manger drivers, if you get a chance to try them.

Geoff

[tianguis]

Geoff:

       I've played around with everything from running them wide open as well as X-O points from 140-440 Hz. Right now, 418 Hz, 4th order Linkwitz-Riley (48 dB/octave). I've been surprised at how gain changes as small as 1 dB (between the Manger and Focal) affect coherence.
       Dan Mason and I have talked a bit about the Mangers. As I have a spare pair, my next project is to mount them in some OB's I have, using the bass bins of the Ovations for the bottom few octaves. Maybe Derek is onto something.
       I'm hoping that someone in the New York Audio Rave crew will pony up for a Sig 30 or Sig mono's so I can confirm my suspicion that they'd be ideal in my app.

Larry

[geofstro]

Larry,

Just to be clear (pun intended) Derek does not use the Mangers in an open baffle, only the SEAS bass drivers. The Mangers are in his patent pending SD heads for absorbing the backwave, just like on his larger Encore speakers.



A very sophisticated design, I think. Derek is very clear that he only wants to sell these as part of a complete Overkill system.

Geoff

[tianguis]

Geoff:

       Thanks for the pic and clarification. I still intend to try the Mangers on OB's.

Larry

[geofstro]

Cool! Keep us posted. I'll be very interested in how it works out.

If you start a thread on the Open Baffle forum I follow it closely.

Geoff