[Blaine_M]

I've been thinking about building a pair of AV-1 rear surrounds to go with my AV-3 pair in my home theater.  I used a 20 mil paper backed veneer when I built the AV-3s, can I use a 10 mil paper backed veneer instead?  Are there things I should be concerned about if I go to the 10 mil instead of the 20 mil?

[Daygloworange]

Hey Blaine M,

The only concern I can think of is that with a thinner veneer is that any flaws in the substrate will telegraph through the thinner veneer more. Since they are both paperback, lifting from solvents in the finishing process is not a great concern.

What method are you using to glue the veneer down?

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Blaine_M]

I used contact cement on my AV/3 floor standers and my AV/3 center.  I've read a little about bubbling issues and bleeding through, is that one of the problems you can have with the 10 mil vs the 20 mil?  What kind of veneer do the guys at RAW use I wonder?  Probably a method above and beyond anything I can do! 

[Daygloworange]

Bubbling issues? Do you mean the veneer bubbling? Yeah, that can happen from not enough glue being used, sometimes if you don't press it well enough it can happen. If that's the case, you can use a hot iron to heat the area, then apply pressure till it cools. That can sometimes work.

Bleed through is not an issue, that's what the paperback is for.

What kind of veneer do the guys at RAW use I wonder?  Probably a method above and beyond anything I can do! 

They probably use paperback for the majority of their work. Beyond that, the glues and techniques used to apply it are pretty straight forward for a DIY'er if you take your time and are carefull, you can achieve professional quality results.

Finishing is where special equipment is involved, but you can still achieve similar results if you wanted too. Just requires a lot of work.

Even with all the tools, equipment and know how, to achieve top notch results, requires work. There are no shorcuts to quality.

Cheers

[Blaine_M]

Yeah, I spent a lot of time veneering and finishing the AV/3 set.  I just found a cheaper alternative for veneer than what I bought for  those, same species, just 10 mil instead of 20 and about half the price.  It doesn't make sense for me to buy a whole sheet of the expensive stuff for a pair of surrounds if I don't have to. 

[Daygloworange]

Nice job Blaine, I've seen your pics before.Yeah, I've got a set of AV/3's as well. Along with Danny's PR sub. I'm very pleased with them.


Cheers

[Blaine_M]

Nice!  When I built the AV/3 set I also built a set of AV/1's for a friend, and my friend and I built Danny's sub as well.  I really liked all the stuff we made.  I decided to go a different route for my sub though.  I've got a sample of the 10 mil stuff I'm interested on the way, I think if it looks close to what I used on my others I'll go ahead and order some. 

[pipster]

I have used 10mil paper backed on other projects without a problem and is probably better if you have a 1/2" roundover.  Just be sure to use enough glue on both cabinet and veneer, and press/scrape well.  I rounded an edge of a 1x4 scrap oak piece to make my press/scrape tool. 

I am about ready to build my speakers as just received the jasper jig, grill magnets and speaker cloth from PE yesterday.  Deciding which ones will be the subject of another post.  While you will probably have ample excess veneer after the A/V-1 to make stand post, I just ran across the steal of the century.  Lowes is switching from the paperback veneer to the lousy iron-on.  "Manager Special" markdown on the 1'x4' oak veneer to $0.81 and 2'x4' for $3.81.  Due to grain direction, the 2' is too narrow for a speaker, but either will handle the stands.

Also - just FYI. If using a 1/4 bit router, the largest roundover typically available is 1/2".  While noone makes a 3/4 roundover on a 1/4 bit, I noticed Sears has a 5/8 roundover on a 1/4 bit.

[Hank]

I've built several speakers over the years, including Danny's Alpha LS's, two pair of A/V-3,s, center channel other towers and several monitors.  I've always used 10-mil paper backed veneer and contact cement, except for once when I bought some special veneer glue - it worked great - don't remember the name.  The only bubling I've had was once when I didn't use enough contact cement.  Tip:  you have to let it dry enough so that you can touch it without sticking to it; otherwise, it will still be outgasing after application and won't stick good enough and may "bleed through".  Also, you HAVE to use a lot of pressure to rub down the veneer - that's the key to ultimate bonding.  The best tool I've come up with is an oak 1x4 with the edges lightly rounded with a few wipes of fine sandpaper.  I'll put a tower cabinet on the floor or my HD work bench, then straddle it and hold the oak board with both hands, letting most of my body weight push the board down, rubbing the veneer with a board edge.  Lots of pressure is essential.  BTW, for larger monitors and towers, I use a 3/4" radius roundover bit.

[Daygloworange]

The thing I would give advice on is too make sure you use enough glue on raw MDF, particularly the cut edges and the rounded over portions. The density in the middle of the board is different then the surface, and is very absorbant. Most times two coats are needed on these areas.

Tip:  you have to let it dry enough so that you can touch it without sticking to it; otherwise, it will still be outgasing after application and won't stick good enough and may "bleed through".

That's good advice as well.

except for once when I bought some special veneer glue - it worked great

I've seen special glues for veneer, mostly for gluing non-paper back veneer. In the case of paper back veneer, contact cement will work fine, for all intents and purposes, there would be no performance advantage. If you follow the tips people are offering here, you'll should have no problems getting great results.

Cheers

[Blaine_M]

Thanks for the input on the 10 mil guys.  I know how to apply it, same as the 20 mil stuff I used before...just wasn't sure if there was a good reason to continue using 20 mil instead of 10 since I can get some 10 mil from another source in the species I want way cheaper than were I got the 20 mil stuff that I used on the AV/3 and AV/3s that I built earlier. 

[slksc]

This will be somewhat OT, but I'll post anyway.  I just finished veneering my sub.  I'd been using the traditional liquid contact cement, which worked well, but I just tried the gel version of the contact cement for the first time.  It made a big difference with those big pieces of veneer.  Much faster to apply, no drips, less fumes, easier clean-up.  And I'm for anything that makes the glue job faster!

[Nostalgia]

I just tried Flexible Sheet Veneer Adhesive on a bent lamination I did with some bubinga burl veneer, and I really liked it.  No odor at all, plenty of open time (~5 minutes), and I didn't need a vacu-press to get good adhesion.

And it's pink! 

-Joe

[Blaine_M]

I wondered about that gell stuff, I saw it at the store but they didn't have it in the gallon cans, just the small cans.  That pink stuff looks interesting as well.  I think OakWood Veneer has something like that....similar anyway. 

[slksc]

I just tried Flexible Sheet Veneer Adhesive on a bent lamination I did with some bubinga burl veneer, and I really liked it.

Now that's the craziest product selling I've ever seen.  You shouldn't buy it between Oct. 31 and April 1, and if you do, they'll wait until April 1 to ship it?  Well, at least I'd have a built-in excuse for being so slow in finishing my speaker kits.   

[chadh]

I just tried Flexible Sheet Veneer Adhesive on a bent lamination I did with some bubinga burl veneer, and I really liked it.

Now that's the craziest product selling I've ever seen.  You shouldn't buy it between Oct. 31 and April 1, and if you do, they'll wait until April 1 to ship it?  Well, at least I'd have a built-in excuse for being so slow in finishing my speaker kits.   

The part I really liked was the fact that they promised not to charge you extra for holding it back until April 1st!  Nice to know that they're looking out for the consumer.

Chad

[Blaine_M]

I'm assuming that is because they don't want it to freeze? 

[Hank]

I've used a gallon of the gel contact cement and did like it better than the traditional liquid.
I tried that pink FSV adhesive and I REALLY liked it!  Not cheap.  I ordered two gallons and used one in a fairly short period of time, BUT kept the other one in the garage over the winter, and...
Yes, there's a reason they won't ship in the winter - it's cold/freeze sensitive.