[kujocku]

 I have an Odyssey DM stratos. A great amp, however I am thinking of going to either Odyssey mono extremes or the Butler TDB2250. Soundstage, detail, sweetness, musicality and how does the butler fair against the monos in bass? Tightness, depth, articulation. Thanks Neil

[mgalusha]

I had the opportunity to compare a Butler 5150 to my Extreme Monos and in my system at the time the Butler did not seem to do well driving my speakers. They were Vandersteen 3A Signatures and I had very long speaker cables. This proved difficult for some other amps as well so it was not really a fair comparison. The Odyssey's had (and have) no trouble driving this and any other load I've ever connected them to.

I also tried bi-amping with 2 channels of the Butler to each speaker and this was much better but the am still didn't seem happy, like it was straining into the load. The friend who brought it by found it had no troubles with his VMPS RM-40's, so it may be that it didn't care for my 40' speaker cables.

[alana106]

 [/quote]
The friend who brought it by found it had no troubles with his VMPS RM-40's, so it may be that it didn't care for my 40' speaker cables.
[/quote]

I'm heading down this road myself with VMPS RM-40's.  Would really like to hear your friend's thoughts!

[mgalusha]

I'll let him know you are curious and see if he has anything to say. I know he had the amp on loan, so I don't know how much time he spent with the Butler in his system.

[warnerwh]

I know of another owner with the RM 40's besides myself who loves the Fetvalve 550 that Van Alstine makes. It's a synergy from heaven. The Fetvalve is also a hybrid but the tubes are in the input stage where tubes are superior to transistors due to the large voltage swings.

The Butler, I believe, uses tubes as a buffer in the output stage. Someone told me, check with the manufacturer, that you could actually remove the tubes and use the amp. This may or may not be true but would sure make it more versatile.

I've heard a number of SS amps through my Rm 40's now and Frank's amp is superior, period. It's very clean with no harshness like I've never heard. The only other amp I've heard comparable was the Blue Circle hybrid I had. It's only weakness was it's low power but sound quality was outstanding. I see how the Blue Circle line has done so well even though they're very expensive. The guy who designs the gear is quite a character but obviously very bright.

I believe Frank gives a 30 day no hassle guarantee on his amps.  You'd only be out shipping. The gear has an excellent reputation for reliability also. After 4 decades I'm sure Frank's got something figured out very well. I don't know what but for what he wants for his amps, the build quality and sound quality it's a steal.

The guy I bought my Fetvalve from used it with his RM 2's and just couldn't justify keeping such an expensive amp to just use on his midrange/tweeter drivers. He described it to me just as I have to you though. Another audiocircle member said the same thing when hearing this person's system. It's special sound quality is just what the Vmps speakers like. It doubles it's power into 4 ohms which is important if you run it full range as our speakers do dip below that and with two woofers it's not an easy load.

[darkmoebius]

The Butler, I believe, uses tubes as a buffer in the output stage. Someone told me, check with the manufacturer, that you could actually remove the tubes and use the amp. This may or may not be true but would sure make it more versatile.

Not sure if that description is technicaly accurate at all. From what I understand of the description on Butler's website, the tube stage is an actual driver stage between the input voltage amplifier stage and the Mosfet output stage. The tubes are used to enance the bias of the bi-polar output Mosfets. A sample of reflected load of the speakers is re-introduced into the circuit before the output Mosfets. So, the tube stage does see the speaker load, but does not buffer the output stage from it. (whew! Hope I got that right)

In reality, the Moscode's are probably closer to Output Transformer-Less (OTL) amps since they don't have output transformers and the tubes react directly to the speakers varying load.

Hopefully, someone with a greater understanding of these things can chime in because I can't be sure I got that even remotely right.

From Butler's website:

Tube Driver BLUE utilizes the Edison Effect to automatically enhance biasing of the audiophile-quality Sanken bi-polar power output devices. This unique, Patented design reduces Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) to typically LESS than 0.10%. This achievement is almost unheard of in an open-ended, ZERO negative global feedback hi-fi amplifier. Conventional open-ended vacuum tube amplifiers often exhibit real world THD of 2% or greater and are generally limited to very low output power. Tube Driver BLUE succeeds in operating at 1/10th the THD with more than 10 times the power while maintaining real vacuum tube tonality! Hear the original essence of vacuum tubes with Tube Driver BLUE!

Tube Driver BLUE accurately fulfills both of these essential requirements for tube sound:

   1. By directly interfacing the mechanical-electrical speaker load with twin triode vacuum tube drivers, Tube Driver BLUE produces the response and tonality of 'all tube' power amplifiers.

   2. Utilizing the pure thermionic Edison Effect, the Tube Driver BLUE circuit design safely biases the twin triode Tube Drivers to a consistent, near-saturated or overload condition. The results are greatly expanded dynamics, punch and presence from naturally produced vacuum tube harmonics.

From 6Moons review:

[crossroadazn]

What fetvalve 550 got to do with this thread ?

[bpape]

Well, we'll hear the Butler at Alan's house this weekend.  In a couple of months, I'll have my Mono Extremes.  If all can wait that long, we'll have a chance to compare them directly on the VMPS's.

Bryan

[darkmoebius]

Well, we'll hear the Butler at Alan's house this weekend.

I'm real interested in hearing more opinions of this amp design, it's high on my list of "possibles" along with the Moscode 401HR

[sleepysurf]

I'm also watching this thread closely, as I am contemplating a Butler TDB 2250 to mate with my Modwright Pre, for driving a pair of ML Summits.  It's surprising how LITTLE feedback there is online re the Butlers, aside from the 6moons review, and a few other sporadic posts.  There have been a number of Butlers for resale on A'gon (and here) lately, and I'm wondering why.

[launche]

I'm also watching this thread closely, as I am contemplating a Butler TDB 2250 to mate with my Modwright Pre, for driving a pair of ML Summits.  It's surprising how LITTLE feedback there is online re the Butlers, aside from the 6moons review, and a few other sporadic posts.  There have been a number of Butlers for resale on A'gon (and here) lately, and I'm wondering why.

There are many happy butler amp owners from what I have gathered.
I am in the process of selling mine and it has nothing to due with it's performance just other circumstances.  I really like the butler 2250 amp and would purchase one again.  If you look at some of the comments and comparisions, the majority are comparisions with more expensive amps and someone may prefer better.  And some of these amps McCormack DNA500, Moscode can be considered some of the better amps period (and at a higher price tag).  I would also suspect some resales for people wanting to try a hybrid amp and maybe staying with their beloved tubes etc...

As stated before the Butler is a wonderful amp at its price range and a great buy preowned.  One thing to remember is there is an unofficial audio ladder and depending upon how much resources (monetary, time, attention to setup etc...) that one wants to invest to achieve a higher level or personalized system sound is key.
Most could be very happy with a Butler, Odyssey, Rotel etc... for there given investment level.  Then others willing to go farther will invest more for incremental increases as desired.

But we always have to remind ourselves that just because one unit is a little better overall or in a particular area (or meets a certain owners tastes) doesn't mean the other unit is bad.  Maybe you need desire an especially extended top end, or maybe you're gear compensates better for the pros and cons of a particular unit etc...

You know what I'm saying...in your system, to your ears.
And as most know, if you didn't have two units side by side you probably couldn't tell sh*t from shinola (whatever that really means)
Audio is fickle, you may think you know and then move the speakers two inches, change an interconnect, powercord, internals etc... and what you thought that component couldn't do, it suddenly does better.

Thanks for the obvious rant.

[darkmoebius]

There have been a number of Butlers for resale on A'gon (and here) lately, and I'm wondering why.

I think there are a few reasons this happens:

1. Whenever there is a good review of any component in one of the magazines, there is always a slew of quick purchases. Within a month or two, you'll see a block of that same piece for sale used.

Why?

2. Some people are in search of the "ultimate", which doesn't exist.
3. Others are compulsive audio shoppers who never settle on anything for long.

4. But, the majority are probably trying to find the best piece that fits in their existing system. Not many people have a vast library of preamps, amps, sources, interconnects and power cables to find the best combination for each new component. Yet, very few components work/sound best in exactly the same system. So, the new component is usually handicapped because the buyer's current system is optimized for the resident piece. A "home court" advantage.

Or, as launche, pointed out, the particular piece doesn't match well with the existing system's weaknesses(and all have them).

5. I see quite a few ads of people who buy a new component/system and then get hit with an unexpected illness or financial hardness. I see at 3 or 4 ads like that a month. (happened to me, though I always buy used)

I'm also interested in the Butler, AVA FET Valve 550, or the Moscode, but I doubt I will ever be able to (financially)all of these in-house at the same time. I'm hoping a few people with greater means will eventually make the obvious comparison between or all.

[RPM123]

"It's surprising how LITTLE feedback there is online re the Butlers,"

I have been a very happy Butler owner for the past year! It has plenty of power (for my needs anyway)... the only issue may be its relatively low input sensitivity, therefore some preamps may not be a good match depending on your speakers, room size, etc. You will get the most "bang" from it if your preamp has a healthy voltage output. I have not heard the Moscode, but it is quite a bit more expensive than the Butler. Sure wish that I could afford the Monads!


Butler 2250, Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi, Dali Helicon 400, Ayre C5xe, (room 19 x14)

[satfrat]

I too have had my 2 Butler 3150's in a 6.1 sound system using a Sunfire Theater Grand 4 processor for over 3 years now and I'm still estatic over their dynamic power output. You can do a search and see how much I talked them up. Nothing has changed.


Robin


Butler 3150, Sunfire Theater Grand 4, Cellar Cinemas HTPC-465, Odyessy Audio Lorelei, Usher X-616, Ridge Street Audio Poiema!!!

[sleepysurf]

Well, having read the (mostly) favorable reviews on the Butler TDB line, I just took the plunge and ordered a 2250 (to replace an older Sunfire Cinema Grand 200).  Will report back on how well it integrates with my Modwright Pre and ML Summits.

[Rob Babcock]

I think a few AC'ers use or have used Butlers.  MCA just sold his, I think. 

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, I don't an awful lot of thought to why stuff gets sold.  Audiophilia is a progressive disease!   Among many audiophools, a family heirloom is defined as a peice they've kept for six months.  Most of us like to try new stuff when we can, and many of us can't afford to do so without selling something.  Even I have been guilty of this many times, and I'm nowheres near as bad as most guys here!

[bpape]

Well, Saturday night we listened to the 2250 on the VMPS RM40's full range.  While this has nothing to do with the comparison to the Odyssey, I will say that it was an excellent match.  It really grabbed the bottom end of the 40's and kept them under control while at the same time bringing the ribbons to life.  And, all of this is without the OXO's - just straight full-range.

The difference between it and the VTL was not subtle.  Much better control overall.  The sound was just much more effortless and the speakers really liked having plenty of juice and I suspect the higher damping factor - not to mention the faster slew rate on the ribbons.

For completeness, the rest of the system was:

SB3 with Boulder digital mods
Boulder modded ELPAC PS
Rougue 99 Pre and MapleTree Pre
MHDT Labs Paradesia DAC
Kimber 8TC BiWire
....senior moment on the low level cables - sorry.

Bryan