[eric the red]

Am purchasing an Arcam A-85 integrated that has the option of me adding an external amp for bi-amping purposes. If at a future date I decide to add another amp, do I need to purchase the exact same power specs (85 wpc) of the Arcam or can I use any power amp? Say I added a 105 wpc amp to the Arcam; Will the output to my speakers then be 190 wpc into each speaker?  I will be using my GR Research Paradox 3s that have only two binding posts per speaker. Will I be hooking up one set of speaker wires to the left channel on one amp and the other set to the other amp? I don't know why this is so confusing to me

[MaxCast]

I think you have to take into consideration the gain of two different amps and the input sensitivity as well.  This is for passive biamping.

You could go active bi amping with an active xo with level controls to match the output of the two amps.

To add to your question:  what happens to output levels of two different amps as the volume changes?  Do they stay linear?

[woodsyi]

Eric,

Wimpy amp to the tweets and macho amp to the woofers!  Your tweets see 85 w and woofs see 105w independently which is the beauty of biamping.

[Wayner]

Eric,

Do not hook two power amps together to the same speaker terminals, you will blow your amps and speakers up. For you to bi-amp, or bi-wire you need speakers that have two sets of speaker inputs, one for the low frequency driver(s), one for the high frequency driver(s). In these types of speakers, there isn't any internal connections between the two sets of binding posts. Usually these speakers have an external strap or wire connecting the commons together and the hots together for use with a single amplifier. If you are going to bi-amp with one amplifier driving each speaker, you must have identical amplifiers as their gain will be identical.

W

[BobM]

I've been playing with the same idea for a couple of weeks. I'm building a passive attenuator to turn down the level of the bass amp - it's a wee bit loud and boomy, making the twinkly things sound lost. Lucky for me it's the bass amp that's louder. Not sure what I would do if it was the top end - perhaps look into outboard (active) crossovers.

I'm not 100% sold on the concept yet - still playing. Once I get it all balanced out I'm hoping to reap the benefits of both worlds (SS on bottom, toobes on top). One really good thing though is that I'll be able to adjust the bass level for different mediums (less for digital and more for vinyl - for some reason I find I need more bass out of my vinyl).

Enjoy,
Bob

[toobluvr]

I will be using my GR Research Paradox 3s that have only two binding posts per speaker. Will I be hooking up one set of speaker wires to the left channel on one amp and the other set to the other amp? I don't know why this is so confusing to me

with only one pair of binding posts on your speakers, bi-amping will be rather difficult!!   
     

[Bob Reynolds]

Am purchasing an Arcam A-85 integrated that has the option of me adding an external amp for bi-amping purposes. If at a future date I decide to add another amp, do I need to purchase the exact same power specs (85 wpc) of the Arcam or can I use any power amp? Say I added a 105 wpc amp to the Arcam; Will the output to my speakers then be 190 wpc into each speaker?  I will be using my GR Research Paradox 3s that have only two binding posts per speaker. Will I be hooking up one set of speaker wires to the left channel on one amp and the other set to the other amp? I don't know why this is so confusing to me

Since your speakers have only a single pair of binding posts, you can not biamp them.

If you were using two monoblock amps, then you would connect one amp to the left speaker and one amp to the right speaker. The advantage of this configuration is short speaker cables and infinite channel separation.

I'll point out one other biamping possibility and that's when using a powered subwoofer. If the Arcam integrated has both preamp out and amp in jacks, then you can insert a high pass filter before the main amp. This will remove the bass frequencies from the main amp/speakers. This should reduce distortion and increases the chances of a smooth integration of the sub.

[eric the red]

Eric,

Do not hook two power amps together to the same speaker terminals, you will blow your amps and speakers up. For you to bi-amp, or bi-wire you need speakers that have two sets of speaker inputs, one for the low frequency driver(s), one for the high frequency driver(s). In these types of speakers, there isn't any internal connections between the two sets of binding posts. Usually these speakers have an external strap or wire connecting the commons together and the hots together for use with a single amplifier. If you are going to bi-amp with one amplifier driving each speaker, you must have identical amplifiers as their gain will be identical.

W

So if I purchase the matching 85 wpc amp and hook it up to the Arcam, I will be driving one speaker with the integrated's amp and one speaker using the additional amp and my speakers will be each receiving 170 wpc? Will I use one set of binding posts for each channel from each amp? Again, my speakers have only two binding posts. Would adding an additional identical amp turn each amp into a mono block is what I am wondering. This is the amp in question:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/archive/diva/hifi/a85.html

[Wayner]

Not yet. Since the Arcams are not mono amps, that is the next problem. Some amplifiers are designed to run in mono operation, roughly trippling their power output. Your amplifier may not be able to run in such a fashion. You would need a phase inverter, like the one Audio by Van Alstine offers.

However, since the Arcams are an itegrated amplifier, the set-up has become complicated.

A much simpler system would have a pre-amplifier, two mono amplifiers and speakers. That way, the preamp could feed both amplifiers which in turn drives the speakers. Or, if you had a preamplifier with the phase inverter built in, you could run two stereo amps in mono feeding each amp to each speaker.

If you bought new speakers that could be bi-amped, you could use the Arcam for all of your inputs and volume control and have its outputs run the high frequency inputs of each speaker, then you could buy a basic amplifier, say 150 watts per channel and have that run the low frequency drivers of both speakers. I beleive they call that vertical bi-amping. This has a problem too, because most basic power amps do not have level controls to adjust the gain so that both amps outputs can be equalized to the approximate levels, otherwise the bass may be too loud or vise-versa.

W

[toobluvr]

With one pair of binding posts per speaker......
you cannot bi-amp......period.....end of story! 
Nor can you bi-wire.
jeeez!     

do some research and learn what bi-amping and bi-wiring is!

with your speakers, you have only 2 options, both single wire:
(1)  use one stereo amp
(2)  use a pair of mono-block amps

Mono amps are basically a stereo amp in which both channels have been split out and housed separately. 

Conversely, a stereo amp are basically mono amps that have been housed in the same chasis.

In each case, you have 2 channels of amplification...one for the L, one for the R.

In your situation, I don't see how adding another stereo amp accomplishes anything.
Unless each stereo amp can be strapped and converted into a mono amp.
In which case, you would use one amp on L speaker, and one amp on R speaker, and have more power into each speaker.

But unless the amps are identical, you will now have a different amp on each channel, and possible mismatches in sonics, power outputs, sensitivities, gain, etc. can occur.
I don't see what is to be gained.
What is your objective?

[eric the red]

With one pair of binding posts per speaker......
you cannot bi-amp......period.....end of story! 
Nor can you bi-wire.
jeeez!     

do some research and learn what bi-amping and bi-wiring is!

I'm trying to do my research NOW with these questions. A reviewer of the amp in question said this " There's also a power-in/pre-out loop for driving an external amplifier for biamping applications", thus my questions.  IF MY QUESTIONS ARE TOO DUMB ASS FOR YOU, STAY OUT OF THE DISCUSSION.

[Bob Reynolds]

Eric,

There's nothing wrong with your questions. You are correct that you are doing the research by asking these questions.

You are not able to biamp with the speakers you have, so another power amp will not be of any benefit to you.

However, you are correct that the A-85 does have both preamp out and amp in RCA connections. So, as I posted earlier, biamping with the amp in a powered subwoofer is something you could do and I highly recommend.

For general info on biamping with the A-85, see the manual (page 12) here:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/archive/handbooks/a85_p85.pdf

[Wayner]

Eric,

Back in the early seventies, I was running Marantz stuff (3300 pre-amp and 240 power amp) when I came across an old Dynaco Stereo 70. Well I wanted to bi-amp damn-it! I had a pair of JBL L100's at the time. I took the speakers apart and found out the woofer was rolled off naturally with no induction coil or capacitor in the cross-over path. So, I separated the woofer from the circuit and installed another set of speaker posts in the back of the cabinet. One set of terminals for the now isolated woofer, and the original set for the midrange and tweeter of the L-100's. I used a set of Y-cables from the preamp and powered both amps from the pre-amp using the Marantz 240 for each of the left and right channel woofers and then I used the Dynaco Stereo 70 for the midrange and tweeters for each channel. Crap, did this system rock! I really didn't have any way of controlling how much level each amp was at, but by luck, their gain levels were very similar.


There are many good reasons to bi-amp. We at AC have to get you steered in the right direction. Yes, your mission now is difficult as you do not have the right set up.

I am soon going to get the new AVA Ultimate 70 and I am going to bi-amp my Dynaco A25XL's as the woofers for these speakers roll off naturally as well. So, I will do the same trick to these as I did on my JBL's.

W

[toobluvr]

I'm trying to do my research NOW with these questions. A reviewer of the amp in question said this " There's also a power-in/pre-out loop for driving an external amplifier for biamping applications", thus my questions.  IF MY QUESTIONS ARE TOO DUMB ASS FOR YOU, STAY OUT OF THE DISCUSSION.

OK.....let me decipher.

(1) The integrated under question has a "power in". 
This means you can by-pass its line section, and only use its amp section. 
You would need to use an external line stage to do this.

(2) It also has a "pre out". 
This means you can use the integrated's line section only, and then run the signal into another stereo amp...should you choose to do so.  It also allows for bi-amping, since you can route the signal to another amp, and the signal will also be at the internal amp's outputs....hence 2 stereo amps with the same L and R signal in each amp.

One way to biamp would be the following:
Use one stereo amp , L and R channels, to drive the L and R woofer.
Use the other stereo amp, L and R channels, to drive L and R tweeter.

Additional gear required to bi-amp:
* amp
* interconnect
* speaker cables
* separate volume pot (to control gain differences if amps have different input sensitivities)

Just because you have the ability to send the signal to another amp, does not mean you can bi-amp.
To do so, your speakers must have 2 pair of binding posts.

I answered your questions directly and with 100% accuracy.
As have several others.
The frustration is...you keep asking the same thing over and over and over, even after it has been satisfactorily answered.  Others are making the time and effort to help.  Your need for spoon-feeding suggests that your effort is minimal.  Stop wasting bandwith.

[zybar]

I'm trying to do my research NOW with these questions. A reviewer of the amp in question said this " There's also a power-in/pre-out loop for driving an external amplifier for biamping applications", thus my questions.  IF MY QUESTIONS ARE TOO DUMB ASS FOR YOU, STAY OUT OF THE DISCUSSION.

OK.....let me decipher.

(1) The integrated under question has a "power in". 
This means you can by-pass its line section, and only use its amp section. 
You would need to use an external line stage to do this.

(2) It also has a "pre out". 
This means you can use the integrated's line section only, and then run the signal into another stereo amp...should you choose to do so.  It also allows for bi-amping, since you can route the signal to another amp, and the signal will also be at the internal amp's outputs....hence 2 stereo amps with the same L and R signal in each amp.

One way to biamp would be the following:
Use one stereo amp , L and R channels, to drive the L and R woofer.
Use the other stereo amp, L and R channels, to drive L and R tweeter.

Additional gear required to bi-amp:
* amp
* interconnect
* speaker cables
* separate volume pot (to control gain differences if amps have different input sensitivities)

Just because you have the ability to send the signal to another amp, does not mean you can bi-amp.
To do so, your speakers must have 2 pair of binding posts.

I answered your questions directly and with 100% accuracy.
As have several others.
The frustration is...you keep asking the same thing over and over and over, even after it has been satisfactorily answered.  Others are making the time and effort to help.  Your need for spoon-feeding suggests that your effort is minimal.  Stop wasting bandwith.

 

[eric the red]

I'm trying to do my research NOW with these questions. A reviewer of the amp in question said this " There's also a power-in/pre-out loop for driving an external amplifier for biamping applications", thus my questions.  IF MY QUESTIONS ARE TOO DUMB ASS FOR YOU, STAY OUT OF THE DISCUSSION.

OK.....let me decipher.

(1) The integrated under question has a "power in". 
This means you can by-pass its line section, and only use its amp section. 
You would need to use an external line stage to do this.

(2) It also has a "pre out". 
This means you can use the integrated's line section only, and then run the signal into another stereo amp...should you choose to do so.  It also allows for bi-amping, since you can route the signal to another amp, and the signal will also be at the internal amp's outputs....hence 2 stereo amps with the same L and R signal in each amp.

One way to biamp would be the following:
Use one stereo amp , L and R channels, to drive the L and R woofer.
Use the other stereo amp, L and R channels, to drive L and R tweeter.

Additional gear required to bi-amp:
* amp
* interconnect
* speaker cables
* separate volume pot (to control gain differences if amps have different input sensitivities)

Just because you have the ability to send the signal to another amp, does not mean you can bi-amp.
To do so, your speakers must have 2 pair of binding posts.

I answered your questions directly and with 100% accuracy.
As have several others.
The frustration is...you keep asking the same thing over and over and over, even after it has been satisfactorily answered.  Others are making the time and effort to help.  Your need for spoon-feeding suggests that your effort is minimal.  Stop wasting bandwith.

 

This site used to be a cool place to ask questions about all things audio but now it's not with wankers like you two on board. Hey Zybar and Tooblur: Ever heard the term "Go fuck yourselves"? I'll bet at least one of you have. ETR logging off for the last time.

[eric the red]

And thanks to everyone who did try and help me understand this. Cya

[toobluvr]

And thanks to everyone who did try and help me understand this. Cya

Lose the attitude, and review my posts.
You will see they are responsive, accurate, and completely address your questions.   
And all the info I provided is stated in a simple and direct manner. 

Your inability to understand fairly simple concepts is no reason to get your knickers in a twist!

And I do believe it is reasonable to expect one posing questions to (1) exert minimal effort to comprehend the responses that provide the requested info, and (2) at least do some basic research. 
To not do so suggests expectations of excessive hand-holding, and just plain laziness.

Noone here got nasty.
Only you did that, ETR!

[woodsyi]

This site used to be a cool place to ask questions about all things audio but now it's not with wankers like you two on board. Hey Zybar and Tooblur: Ever heard the term "Go fuck yourselves"? I'll bet at least one of you have. ETR logging off for the last time.

Hey don't go off in a huff like this.  We were here for you when your friend passed away and encouraged to take back your moniker in honor of your friend.  I ask simple questions all the time and get helpfull answers here.  Some may want to make fun of it but I don't mind a little humor here and there. Just dish out a little and take a little jab here and there, but let's keep it friendly. 

[macrojack]

The cities of America are crowded by 4 wheel drive vehicles that people don't need. They are mostly just used to go to the grocery store. A lot of audiophiles seem to pursue bi-amping with a similar me-too lack of comprehension.
Bi-amplification generally provides little or no improvement unless the speakers were designed to need it rather than just being able to accommodate it. Your speakers (with only one set of binding posts) were designed for neither. The greatest benefit of bi-amplifying comes as the result of using an active crossover in the chain prior to the amplifiers. This allows for better amplifier to driver matching, reduces smearing and crossover distortion and is what you will find in professional sound reinforcement.
What I have just told you remains true regardless of amplifier brand, speaker manufacturer claims or on-line fantasy mills. Without changing your speakers and your overall experience level quite significantly, biamplification would be a fool's errand. It is most certainly not going to be a panacea.
So, Eric, if you want help with improving your existing system, why not start by telling us what you find to be lacking in it. It's quite possible that you are considering a complicated and expensive remedy to a simple problem. What I think was being suggested by those who caused you to erupt, is that no prescription should be applied until you reach a reasonably sure diagnosis. And you sound like you should be asking for help with diagnosis instead of requesting instructions on how to implement a randomly selected cure.
In any event, I think you should count to ten and stick around. Your contributions add to the flavor of this little cracker barrel and I would miss them.