Question on High Power SS amps

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john1970

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Question on High Power SS amps
« on: 1 Oct 2006, 10:04 pm »
To everyone at AC:

In my reading of Stereophile reviews of several high power SS amps I've noticed on many occasions that the amps can not pass an 8 ohm load at 1/3 rated power for a period of 1 hr without going into thermal overload.  From these test it appears that many of the amps do not have proper heatsinking.

My question(s):  Because music is dynamic is this sort of test useful?  If an amp fails this test would this prevent you from purchasing it?

I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or right...just interested in what people think.

Thanks,

John

P.S.  IMO an amp should be able to pass this test if properly built.

Bob Reynolds

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Re: Question on High Power SS amps
« Reply #1 on: 2 Oct 2006, 02:40 am »
Hi John,

I do recall some amps not being able to pass that AES thermal stress test that JA performs. Though many do.

My Bryston 7B-SSTs did not pass it. I was surprised. Even more surprised that in my use, I can barely tell they're even powered up they run so cool. Just shows that I'm not pushing them at all.

I think the test has use if it shows the component's distortion measurements worsen or not.

-- Bob

amplifierguru

Re: Question on High Power SS amps
« Reply #2 on: 2 Oct 2006, 04:57 am »
This test you speak of is great for an industrial amplifier which might see continuous duty, but for an audio amp where wide dynamic range music is being amplified, it is unrealistically excessive. The result is substantially overbuilt amplifiers with no real benefit. Up goes the price for no improvement in sound quality. :nono:

Cheers,
greg

Frihed91

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Re: Question on High Power SS amps
« Reply #3 on: 2 Oct 2006, 10:04 am »
Absolutely not.  For 99% of the time, SS power amps do very little work and use only a small fraction of their rated power.  For some speakers, a more important feature of the amp will be to increase its rated power out by close to a factor of 2 with each 50% reduction in speaker impedance and be stable at very low impedance (1-2 ohms).

Believe it or not, the bigger the drivers/cones in a speaker, the more efficient it will be, everything else equal.  So, some low efficiency mini-monitors are technically harder to drive than the monster JBLs. (Pardon the technical terms).

Breathe easy.

Bob Reynolds

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Re: Question on High Power SS amps
« Reply #4 on: 2 Oct 2006, 04:47 pm »
Just for reference, I posted this a while back to the Lab.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31702.0

I would like to see magazines publish PowerCubes for amplifier reviews.

avahifi

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Re: Question on High Power SS amps
« Reply #5 on: 2 Oct 2006, 06:23 pm »
Actually the 1/3 power continuous power test is a lot harder on an amplifier than continuous full power operation.

At full power most of the heat is dumped into the load, not into the amplifier.  At 1/3 power most of the heat is dumped back into the amplifier.

The old FTC test standard came about because of wildly inflated "brown box" commercial gear of the time, some advertising 1000 watts  peak power with little sold state amplifier built into the furnature like coffins that only put out 10 watts or so real.  The 1/3 power test was simply picked out of thin air without an understanding that it was actually near worst case operation, and not like real world use conditions at all. Many companies with quality products had to change their products.  Crown, for example with their battleship like 300 amplifier moved the thermal protection breakers from the transistors themselves to far away out on the heat sinks, so they would not trip as fast.  The amplifier never did have any power or heat problems, but the rules meant they had to remove protection for the user.  It was a bad regulation.  Bob Tucker of Dynaco did a major white paper on the subject.  Even the old Dyna St-70 tube amp had to be downrated in power because of it.

Bob Carver, as I understand it, got around the rules because his little cube was designed to run with the small amp section at near full power under 1/3 power test conditions, with the high power mode essentially turned off, so a big heat sink was not required, just enough needed for the 5 minute full power end test, starting when it had not been heated up with the worse case 1/3 power preconditioning.

In recent years, I doubt if there has been any enforcement of these rules as they were pretty well understood to not be very useful.

We have never provided thermal shutdown circuits on new AVA amplifiers because we have never had a reported case of output circuit damage that was overheating related.  In our vigorous 1/3 power testing here, we note that the output transistor cases always stay within the manufacturer's safe operating range, and more important yet, the thermal gradient between the output cases themselves and the very end of the heat sink fins is very small, indicating that the heat sinks are doing an excellent job of pulling the heat out of the devices and dumping it into the air.  The heat sinks themselves are "striated" (many small grooves) which nearly doubles their effective size.

But in any event, don't worry if your own amplifier (whatever brand) flunks a pre-conditioning test, it is not a real world situation and likely has no good correlation to the unit's actual audio performance.

Now advertised power for car radios and multi-channel surround sound systems, well that is a different tale entirely, and subject to more thought on a quiet rainy day when I have nothing better to expand on.

Frank Van Alstine