Best Classical Recording "Hands Down"

John Casler · « **on:** 20 Jun 2003, 11:18 pm »

What classical (CD) recording is the "all time" BEST?

My primary concern is "Acurate" SoundStage and Imaging.

Preferably a familiar piece but anything is of interest.

I can only find a few that "really" have the orchestra "staged" well.

Any contenders?

And the Labels to, so I can find them. I have couple Telarcs and am somewhat disappointed.

Thanks.

Tyson · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Jun 2003, 11:41 pm »

Try some of the Mercury "Living Presence" CD's. They don't multi-mic as badly as some like Deutches Gramophon do.

Mozarts Piano Concerto's performed by Ashkenazy on the Decca label are recorded very well (nice performances too). In fact, my fave performance of concerto #20 is done in this series of discs.

Also, check out Hilary Hahn's performance of the Beethoven Violin Concerto on Sony.

On Naxos, Feeney's "Dracula" is extremely well recorded.

For chamber music, check out the Emerson Quartet's performance of Beethoven String Quartets on DG.

For solo instruments, lots to choose from. I like Bach's Solo Cello suites performed by Bylsma on Sony. And Liszt's piano sonata performed by Pogorelich on DG.

John Casler · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 06:12 am »

Thanks Tyson,

I found a couple of those at Tower On-line.

The Dracula looks (and sounds) cool.

Out of all the classical orchestral recordings I have "only" the 1812 Overture, has the correct instrument placings in a realistic sense.

Feilder and the Boston Pops "for cryin out loud". from 1974!!!

I guess I'll have to re-visit my vinyl and burn it to CD.

After your mention of Dracula, I did pull out the John Williams and Kilar Scores, and they were OK with the Kilar Soundtrack being a bit more detailed and accurate.

I'm looking for some well done classics, The Planets, Pictures at an Exhibition, Rites of Spring, also I generally like Orchestral Bach transcriptions like Stowkowski used to do.

soundguy3 · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 08:35 am »

Hi John,

Give Dorian Recordings a try www.dorian.com ...they have some of the best sounding classical CD's I have ever heard....most of their stuff is early music, that aside, it's sounds great....soundstage, depth, etc....I can recommend the following from my own library

1. A Baroque Celebration DOR 90189 (Orchestra, great sound!)
2. Encore! LeViolons du Roy DOR 90012 ( Vocalists, well recorded)
3. DOR-90112 Organ Encores – Works by J.S. Bach, Handel, Purcell, Haydn, Schumann, Liszt, et al. • Jean Guillou, Kleuker Organ of Alpe d’Huez, France ( Wonderful sounding Organ in the French Alps)
4. DOR-90117 Mussorgsky/Guillou: Pictures at an Exhibition / Stravinsky/Guillou: Three Dances from Petrouchka • Jean Guillou, Tonhalle Organ, Zürich (Big, huge, Monstrous sound!)

Let me know what you think.

Soundguy3

cjr888 · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 12:48 pm »

He doesn't offer many, they aren't cheap, but Sven Boenicke's recordings are something you might want to check out. And no, I haven't heard them. Check the following links:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=music&n=72776&highlight=Boenicke&r=&session=

Click on the 2nd Red Tab on the Left Navigation Bar (Recordings)
http://boenicke-audio.ch/home.html

http://www.audio-consulting.ch/CDBoenicke.htm

Tyson · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 05:15 pm »

John,
The Dracula I recommend was written for a ballet, not for the movie. The ballet score is much cooler, and superbly recorded. It's $6 locally (gotta love that naxos pricing).

John Casler · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 05:22 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

John,
The Dracula I recommend was written for a ballet, not for the movie. The ballet score is much cooler, and superbly recorded. It's $6 locally (gotta love that naxos pricing).

Yeah Tower has it "online" for $7.95 and they also have several track to listen to. It sounds very cool. It is a definate must have at this point.

Thanks for the tip.

cyounkman · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 05:49 pm »

When you say 'BEST' do you mean in terms of performance or are you speaking strictly in terms of recording quality?

If the latter, the answer probably lies in the dismal provence of the 'audiophile' labels: RR, Chesky, et al.

From more mainstream labels that tend to feature artists of a higher caliber, I would recommend the following:

EMI - Bach Cello Suites, Rostropovich
EMI - Elgar Cockaigne Overture, Enigma Variations, Colin Davis, BBC Symphony Orchestra
Naxos - Prokofiev Violin Concertos 1 & 2, Tedi Papavrami, Antoni Wit, Polish Radio Symphony Orchestra

There are others. I can come up with a longer list if you want. I generally find the highest recording quality on Harmonia Mundi, EMI, L'oiseau - Lyre, Telarc, Teldec, (in roughly descending order).

John Casler · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 05:55 pm »

Soundguy,cjr888 and Chris, thanks.

These are just what I'm looking for. Looks like I'll be hitting a few record stores and online outlets today.

Another question.

I don't know if it is particular to my set up and nearfield listening, but I find most piano recordings don't image well.

That is, it doesn't sound like a lifesize piano between the speakers. It sounds like it is "all over the place".

Texture, tone, depth are great but lateral soundstage of a solo piano is not good. (read: lifelike/real)

I fancy myself as somewhat adept to set up and placement, but I don't get what I feel is real, between the speakers with solo piano.

I would think that it should sound as if it is coming primarily from between the speakers. It does not.

It runs from speaker to speaker (10 ft) and just doesn't sound life size.

Does any one have speakers 9-10 feet apart, listening nearfield, with a reasonable sized piano?

I realize that if I moved the speakers 7-8 feet apart and listened farfield it would work but that that is a whole new set up and orchestral and jazz currently sound perfect.

Or is it the general recording technique for piano where they assume that a smaller set up will have speakers 6-8 feet apart and sitting 8-10 feet a way?

Again, thanks for all the suggestions. Keep'em coming.

Ferdi · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 07:00 pm »

Hi John, I have my speakers about 3 meters apart (about 9 ft.) and I can sometimes get a life-size piano seeming to originate from between or sometimes behind the speakers.

I found that this stretching effect comes from the recording. If the piano is recorded using seperate microphones from the orchestra and then added to both channels, I think you can get this effect. Don't know for sure though.

I would have to think hard about which recordings I found good in this respect.

WilliamL · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 07:29 pm »

Guys,

If you don't know about this site, please do yourself a favor and check it out. They have very knowledgeable and excellent reviews on classical music releases on EVERY LABEL--ranked for sonics and performance!

www.classicstoday.com

You can search reviews or just see all the reviews in the last 30 days. They also try to review most Naxos releases which really helps fans of those cheap Naxos CDs like Tyson and myself.

Cheers,
Bill

John Casler · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Jun 2003, 02:20 am »

Thanks Bill,

I'm all over it

cyounkman · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 04:18 pm »

Quote from: Bill Laurent

Guys,

If you don't know about this site, please do yourself a favor and check it out. They have very knowledgeable and excellent reviews on classical music releases on EVERY LABEL--ranked for sonics and performance!

www.classicstoday.com

They are actually related to or sponsored by my favorite site, http://www.arkivmusic.com. You'll notice that a lot of the review content is actually taken from arkiv music.
Anyway, it's a great site.

cyounkman · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 04:34 pm »

Quote from: John Casler

I don't know if it is particular to my set up and nearfield listening, but I find most piano recordings don't image well.

That is, it doesn't sound like a lifesize piano between the speakers. It sounds like it is "all over the place".

Texture, tone, depth are great but lateral soundstage of a solo piano is not good. (read: lifelike/real)

I fancy myself as somewhat adept to set up and placement, but I don't get what I feel is real, between the speakers with solo piano.

I would think that it should sound as if it is coming primarily from between the speakers. It does not. It runs from speaker to speaker (10 ft) and just doesn't sound life size.

Does any one have speakers 9-10 feet apart, listening nearfield, with a reasonable sized piano?

I realize that if I moved the speakers 7-8 feet apart and listened farfield it would work but that that is a whole new set up and orchestral and jazz currently sound perfect.

Or is it the general recording technique for piano where they assume that a smaller set up will have speakers 6-8 feet apart and sitting 8-10 feet a way?

You have opened up quite a can of worms here. Talk to an audio engineer about recording a piano. They will probably roll their eyes at you or start crying.

The acoustic power of a piano is a remarkable thing: you can overload all sorts of microphones just playing mezzo-forte. And the energy goes in all directions--off the sound board (top and bottom), the case, directly off the strings, reflected off the lid... In other words it's near-impossible to record it with believable results. The most common approaches I've seen are to throw two mikes into the piano (studio-style); where you get weird pans from left to right as with ascending notes (and obviously an artificially giant soundstage); or 10 feet from the instrument, in an attempt to get a 'room' sound; which rarely, rarely works.

You might be able to the results you're after if you moved your speakers for each recording or for each group of recordings that use a given miking scheme. But in my experience, the piano is one the least localized in terms of sound. Because it's almost all reflected sound (whether from the lid or off the floor or off of the back wall), you're just not going to get that audiophile specificity.

If you truly have a life-like rendering of "Texture, tone, depth", I'd say you're doing pretty damn well. In my experience the only systems that can get sort of close to the recorded sound of a piano, if not the actual sound, are very powerful and have lots and lots of driver real-estate. I don't mean to imply that it's the province of muscle amps and PA speakers at all--the overtones are just as fragile as kazoo or a dulcimer and are just as nicely rendered by tubes. You just need to move a lot of air as well.

Sorry to rant.

Brad V · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 08:11 pm »

Hi,

Richter playing Liszt Piano Concerto No. 2 is out of this world. The piano sound on here is so realistic. I have listened to this albums so many times, my wife keeps asking me why I keep buying any new albums.

Here's a link, if you want to hear some of the cuts:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005CCAD/qid=1056657894/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/102-4400477-8375305?v=glance&s=classical

The Piano playing in PC 1 & 2 is goosebump city.

It is an early recording, so there is a good bit of his, however worth the listen.

Have a great day,

Brad

John Casler · « **Reply #15 on:** 27 Jun 2003, 01:44 am »

Thanks Chris and Brad,

I did actually and finally find a real sounding piano sound but it wasn't classical, it was Bruce Hornbsy. (That's The Way It Is)

It actually sounds like Bruce is playing a "centerstage" piano and singing over his right shoulder.

And the piano is not floating/jumping all over the room.

Thanks for the tips and info,

Val · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Jun 2003, 02:36 pm »

My experience has been that recordings made with either the Blumlein (coincident 90-degree mics) like Stereophile's Intermezzo or the ORTF (coincident 110-degree mics) recording technique place a piano realistically between the speakers.

Telarcs engineered by Jack Renner, especially the older ones, used spaced mics that tend to give an exaggerated left-right soundstage with, often, a hole in the middle. New Telarcs engineered by Michael Bishop and Tony Faulkner are much better in that regard and also show less exaggerated bass.

I like the old Mercurys, recorded with three mics on film tape, but some people don't like their close-miked, upfront sound.

Recent Reference Recordings are very realistic, probably the best ever. I like John Rutter's Requiem (RR-57) and Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade (RR-89). As a recording I find Mahler's First Symphony by James Judd directing the Florida Philharmonic (Harmonia Mundi HMU907118) one of the very best, but the performance is dreadful, like Judd was dying on the podium.

Ferdi · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Jun 2003, 08:36 pm »

HI, I promised to look for a good piano recording. I may have other ones but this is one that pretty quickly came to mind:

Martha Argerich playing Rachmaninoff 3rd piano concerto and Tchaikovski's 1st. with orchestra directed by Chailly and Kondrashin respectively.

Now, If I did not remember this all by myself, this CD has a NOT subtle sticker on the front shouting The Best Recording of Rach 3.

In my system and with my ears, this sounds like a very believable recording with good placement of the piano as well. The piano takes about a 3rd of the soundstage with the rest coming from the orchestra. Somehow it also seems to me that I am looking down on the piano. Some sort of not intended recording artifact?

I can give more information on the CD but the main data is: 446 673-2 in the Philips catalog.

spectralman · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Jul 2003, 06:10 am »

My votes go to Beethoven Piano Sonatas/BMG Classics (RCA Victor Gold Seal) played by Artur Rubinstein and Beethoven Symph. No. 6 Pastorale on Sony SACD conducted by Bruno Walter with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.

JoshK · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Jul 2003, 05:19 pm »

I can't say I know the best but my personal favorite and best recording I have found to date is:

Stravinsky's Firebird - Telarc by the Atlanta Philharmonic