Help buying my first turntable....

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** 30 Sep 2006, 02:35 am »

Merle,

Did you buy the 1200 with all the KAB goodies (including strobe disabler) or the newer 1210M5G version?

RH Customs · « **Reply #21 on:** 30 Sep 2006, 02:46 am »

I Will only be listening to LP's on a casual basis. No need for a more expensive system. Looks like I'll be getting the Pro-Ject Debut III and Phono Box II. Who else has used this Turntable and phono pre-amp?

Thanks
RH

kenscott30 · « **Reply #22 on:** 1 Oct 2006, 07:26 pm »

Try Craigslist...There are always Djs dumping them....Try to buy one from their DJ package.... Most try to sell both and a mixer....Talk to KAB and get a better cartridge.

Best of luck.

Just got my insurance check from the post office when I had to file a claim for my broken EBAY rega turntable...Took 3 months to get the 332.00.... What a waste of time.

Best of luck, get a 1200.

Ken

Merle · « **Reply #23 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 02:05 pm »

My 1200 is actually a 1210Mk5. It has the arm damper and the outboard power supply. It has the upgraded arm and wiring from a M5G. I tend to run Grado cartridges more than any others on it. I just like the Grados and they seem to match well with the Technics. I'm truly sorry that the original poster seems to have decided on one of the lower line Projects. A lot of people make this mistake, not really knowing any better, depending on others advice who may or may not have any experience with what they are recomending. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. For around the same price as the Debut III and Phono Box [which is pretty lame by the way, yes, I've heard one] he could have had a great table with an upgrade path to keep him busy for years and a Parasound preamp. Sometimes what you don't know can hurt you.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #24 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 04:04 pm »

Quote from: Merle on 2 Oct 2006, 02:05 pm

My 1200 is actually a 1210Mk5. It has the arm damper and the outboard power supply. It has the upgraded arm and wiring from a M5G. I tend to run Grado cartridges more than any others on it. I just like the Grados and they seem to match well with the Technics. I'm truly sorry that the original poster seems to have decided on one of the lower line Projects. A lot of people make this mistake, not really knowing any better, depending on others advice who may or may not have any experience with what they are recomending. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. For around the same price as the Debut III and Phono Box [which is pretty lame by the way, yes, I've heard one] he could have had a great table with an upgrade path to keep him busy for years and a Parasound preamp. Sometimes what you don't know can hurt you.

Nice- I'm sure he's going to be running to buy the Technics now!

RH Customs · « **Reply #25 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 04:10 pm »

That is true Merle. Who has good prices on the 1200? And ithe Debut III that bad, it will only be for casual listening?

RH

Merle · « **Reply #26 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 04:28 pm »

You can buy a 1210Mk2 from Musicians Friend on line for $399.99, including shipping. If you do decide to go that route, let me know and I will send you the Parasound phono pre to use. My preamp has a very good phono stage so I don't really have any use for it now. That would still leave you $100 for a cartridge, maybe something like an AT440ML.

RH Customs · « **Reply #27 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 04:34 pm »

That is very nice of of you, but currently I'm saving for a turntable (IE I don't have all the funds), as well as spending any money I have right know to help grow my custom audio cable business.

RH

xlrider · « **Reply #28 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 04:47 pm »

Quote from: RH Customs on 2 Oct 2006, 04:10 pm

That is true Merle. Who has good prices on the 1200? And ithe Debut III that bad, it will only be for casual listening?

RH

There is one at: http://www.audiolines.com/product.php?productid=16225&cat=206&page=1
for $269.99, I don't know how used it is.....

xlrider

RH Customs · « **Reply #29 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 04:55 pm »

I'm still at a loss on why the Debut III is not a a good TT for causal listening?

RH

woodsyi · « **Reply #30 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 04:57 pm »

Is Budweiser good for casual drinking?

Merle · « **Reply #31 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 05:01 pm »

I'm sure the Project is fine for casual listening. I'm just trying to help you get a better turntable for what, basically, is the same cost. You could buy the Debut and live happy ever after, I'm sure. I guess I'm saying you should buy what YOU want.

RH Customs · « **Reply #32 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 05:11 pm »

Well at the moment all opinons are welcome, being I'm saving for a TT, and well I like blue

Ok, so what make the 1200 alot better than the Debut III?

RH

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #33 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 05:22 pm »

Quote from: RH Customs on 2 Oct 2006, 04:55 pm

I'm still at a loss on why the Debut III is not a a good TT for causal listening?

RH

RH,

The Pro-Ject is likely fine. I think Merle has found that until you are willing to spend in the $$$ multi-thousand range, you are better off with a Technics 1200 direct drive unit.

Having not heard either, I can't comment directly on them.

However, I set up my $50.00 JVC direct drive unit bought on ebay a year ago, mounted another silicone damping trough on it and compared directly against the $750.00 (used)VPI HW-19 Mark III with damping trough set up the same way, on the same system, on the same day, and even had my wife listen in.

Both she and I agreed, GULP, the JVC sounded better - more vital, attacks were better, swing was more pronounced.

I think it all has to do with speed regulation. The Technics (and JVC's as they use the same FG Servo system as Panasonic's wholly owned subsidiary) has excellent speed regulation. It's not until you buy in to a belt drive TT with a very heavy platter (maybe 10 lbs +) and outboard speed control...likely to cost you 5-6x more than you have in your budget at $500.00 right now.

I've got no axe to grind, it was a surprise to me that the little JVC ebay cheapie (list price of maybe $150.00 in 1978) would be more enjoyable than a VPI Mark III (list price of $1200.00 circa 1995 or so). I'm not prepared to spend $3000.00++ on a vinyl set-up right now - so I think my choice is clear.

The JVC is tweeked out with 9 lb of Plast-i-Clay inside and out, a Herbie's platter mat ($58.00), constrained layer damping on the tonearm, a silicone damping trough (50,000 cst)....but none of these things were costly.

My thoughts are ultimately purely subjective and it biased somewhat by the tremendous price differntial of the two TT's I have....but I stil conclude that the JVC is more enjoyable to me (and my wife)

The JVC also has auto-return - a wonderful feature if it doesn't come with sonic penalties

Jampot · « **Reply #34 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 07:46 pm »

Quote

I'm still at a loss on why the Debut III is not a a good TT for causal listening?

RH, there is no such thing as 'casual listening' with records (unless you have a 60's juke box). The very fact of taking out a disc, dusting it, changing sides after 20 minutes or so means it is anything other than casual.

Maybe you have in mind 'occasional' - not every evening and matinees on weekends

Chair Guy, Merle and others are very enthusiastic (and of course knowledgeable on the topic) but they aren't 'casual' or even 'occasional' listeners to vinyl.

I haven't studied the Project line of tables but I have a Rega Planer3 in my main system which I listen to 'occasionally'. If I try to do anything else at the same time, having to get up at the end of each side is a real pita. I came by a Technics SL-1600 as part of a job lot on ebay recently and am sold on the auto return. When I have a new cartridge and (hopefully) apply some of the tweeks TCG has written pages on, I expect it to be at least the equal (and a whole lot more convenient than the Rega.

Heck, I may even spring for a Kabusa damping trough if it fits my tone arm

Lots of interesting info about 'older' turntables here http://www.theturntablefactory.com/

So, the only possible objection to the Project for casual listening is having to get up at the end of a side - even if you don't actually want to listen to another

Go on, have a blue one

Jim

Brad · « **Reply #35 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 07:56 pm »

RH (here comes not very helpful remark) Why not get a 1200 and have it painted blue?
You could even pick some wacky pearl or metallic blue color

ricmon · « **Reply #36 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 08:03 pm »

Given good isolation,speed control and a good cartridges. What is the differnce in what a TT can do? Don't they all suffer from some degree of surface noise and subject to room vibrations?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #37 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 08:23 pm »

Quote from: ricmon on 2 Oct 2006, 08:03 pm

Given good isolation,speed control and a good cartridges. What is the differnce in what a TT can do? Don't they all suffer from some degree of surface noise and subject to room vibrations?

every thing in your system is subject to something related to room interaction of the same sort...yet everything sounds different, don't they, to you?

Every TT sounds different, as does every speaker and everything else in the chain...it's just up to the individual listener to assess what they want to spent for it and what is good and relatively bad to listen to for that amount of cash.

ricmon · « **Reply #38 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 08:31 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 2 Oct 2006, 08:23 pm

Quote from: ricmon on 2 Oct 2006, 08:03 pm
Given good isolation,speed control and a good cartridges. What is the differnce in what a TT can do? Don't they all suffer from some degree of surface noise and subject to room vibrations?

every thing in your system is subject to something related to room interaction of the same sort...yet everything sounds different, don't they, to you?

Every TT sounds different, as does every speaker and everything else in the chain...it's just up to the individual listener to assess what they want to spent for it and what is good and relatively bad to listen to for that amount of cash.

That i get. my real intrest is given all things equal what performace differences are decernible beyon the subjective nature of preferences?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #39 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 09:37 pm »

I'll just hazard a guess that much of what I perceive to be better playback for the JVC el cheapo direct drive unit has to do with speed regulation (due to extravagent quartz lock , FG Servo control). CD is immune from it, and we all have gotten used to that over the years.

My HW-19 Mark III might well equal the JVC overall - if I add an SDS outboard speed control. But that's $700(used)-$1000.00(new) to add to the equation.

The damping trough on both tables largely eliminates the issue of cartridge/arm matching, so what's left is my subjective basis. The listening part is always subjective - no matter how it's dissected by the engineers as false or unreliable

.

Another 8 people could hear it the other way around - that the VPI is clearly superior, trounces it in fact - and tell me I'm half-cocked about any preceived superiority of the JVC cheapie.

But, it exists, so therefore it matters to me aa