TRL CDP vs. $18k Meitner CD player

James Romeyn · « **on:** 25 Sep 2006, 07:05 am »

An AC member was kind enough to bring over his friend’s $18k Meitner CDP. Did I say $18k? We all need more friends like this. We compared it in my system to a Sony DVP-NS900V SACD/DVD player modified by Tube Research Labs (TRL).

The Meitner is a huge, impressive & handsome 2-box affair. I don’t know much about it because this was my first exposure with it in person. Ed Meitner is an old acquaintance. In the mid-late ‘80s we met several times at CES & socialized together. I liked Ed. He is like a normal guy only much smarter. He likes to laugh. He has a good sense of humor. He lives in Canada. I believe my friend said Ed invented DSD. Ed designs & manufactures some of the most advanced DSD recording systems in the world. He has done a lot of engineering work for Sony. I guessed there were about 200 Meitner SACD/CDP in existence & asked the member if this was about right. He thought that was a reasonable estimate.

Ed introduced us all to the concept of CD jitter. The earlier Meitner transports employed a Philips SACD 1000 CD mechanism. (As most know by now, there are probably no SACD1000’s in use in the field any more. A particular chip was found to have a virtually 100% failure rate. A properly designed replacement chip was never made available & probably never was built. I owned at least three SACD1000’s. All three failed. It was weird having The Good Guys give me 100% cash refund because it could not be repaired & there was no appropriate replacement piece available about 1.5 years after purchase. The warranty was two years-woops Philips & Good Guys! GG is gone now. It’s interesting that my ’04-‘05 $125 Pioneer DV563 universal player sounds better playing CD’s than did the originally $2k SACD1000. But I digress.)

Latter Meitner transports including the unit I sampled employed a latter Philips SACD mechanism. Philips apparently has since stopped manufacturing transport mechanisms for audio use. The transport & DAC are connected by an elaborate junction of optical digital cords (at least three) whereby the clock in the DAC syncs the clock in the transport, thereby allegedly minimizing jitter.

My friendly AC member had been using the Meitner for some time & had never turned it off. It took us about 5 minutes of trying to load & read a CD for the transport to finally lock in & play music. For the aforementioned 5 minutes it kept making a chirping sound like a belt on a mouse’s treadmill was slipping. I asked if the owner had fed the mouse lately, but he was not amused. I think I would have responded similarly if the roles were reversed. I officially apologize.

TRL used to make insanely expensive tube amps in the $100k range. They now state their affordable SS amps beat the most expensive tube amps they ever made. Their SS amps are about 225W & only cost about $5k (don’t quote me). They also make a non-remote integrated. One dartZeel owner said the early SS TRL amp was not quite as good in the midrange as the dartZeel. He believes the current TRL amps equal or beat his dartZeel.

My TRL CDP is very plain looking, almost drab. It looks like a stock Sony except for a little TRL strip that looks like a Dymo-label reading, “modified by Tube Research Labs”. It has no tubes. All the modifications are silicone. (Is it time for TRL to change their name to “Transistor Research Labs”?) I paid $450 for the stock Sony & about $800 or so for the mod. The mod was delivered 3/06. This mod has several upgrades vs. the earlier models & TRL states the upgrades are significant. I believe them. If you heard an earlier model I’d not judge it equal to this one.

There is now a further upgrade costing about the same amount again: A rechargeable battery pack. TRL says it’s well worth it.

All the OEM Sony video circuits are kaput. Only the stereo front channels remain. It does still play SACD. I have few SACD discs & don’t listen much. CD’s on this sucker sound probably better than SACD anyway, which have some amusical quality I can’t describe. Sorry.

My TRL was auditioned first. I listened to the main theme from the Sabrina movie (remake) soundtrack by John Williams. When we first heard the Meitner after the TRL I was disappointed. There was no doubt the TRL was better throughout & in every way.

We of course decided the Meitner needed time to warm up. We played music at moderate levels, sometimes listening closely sometimes talking. We then got back to more serious listening. The staging & breathing dynamics opened up considerably. The Meitner has about the largest staging you are likely to ever hear. In that single regard it may well be the best available. It has a very impressive breadth of presentation & very good macro dynamic contrast. Around this time we heard the wonderful "Sera Una Noche" by the MA Company, disc MO52A. Utterly huge natural hall effects.

Here’s where the TRL exceeded the Meitner: Musicality, emotional reaction to the music, more distinct image outlines & differentiation of fine & faint musical lines.

Most telling when it was over is that the friendly AC member thought the TRL was a closer fit for his musical tastes vs. the Meitner. If that’s not saying a lot I don’t know what is. The member’s system is comprised of Avant Garde Duo’s & tube amplification. He has experience w/ systems costing well over $100k.

I heard that one owner of the Reimyo CDP (similar price to Meitner) traded for the TRL. I know of one owner of a Marantz SA-11A1 with about $5k worth of mods who thought the TRL (earlier vintage vs. mine) blew away his Marantz.

I still say the TRL is a true giant-killer. Too bad there’s not an optional extra-cost high-class OEM natural-color aluminum TRL faceplate. I’d like the remote & faceplate to not have all the now-useless video & programming functions.

My 2c; YMMV.

prokennex · « **Reply #1 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 10:10 pm »

I hear TRL are now modding a marantz 8001 cd player. After the mods the marantz is supposed to be even better the sony DVP-NS900V.

tvad4 · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 10:12 pm »

My APL Denon 3910 provided a more enjoyable listening experience when compared to an EMM Labs CDSD/DAC combo.

The Meitner gear is a little dry for my taste.

Hi-acuity · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Sep 2006, 01:52 am »

RibbonSpeakers,

Thank you for the detailed review-comparison. I've had a Sony 900 with the battery power supply and agree on all accounts. It is the most musical digital player I've heard. I've never owned EMM Labs mainly due to the high price, though I've heard it many times at shows and in other people's homes. The first couple of times I heard the EMM Labs, I liked it. Then I heard a TRL SA-14 Marantz in a Friend's system. Then I heard the TRL Sony 900.

I've always wanted to directly compare the EMM to either TRL player, in my own system, but never had the chance. Thank you for confirming what I thought the results may be. I've heard great things about TRL amplifiers and preamplifiers through various Web friends, such as Kurt Atherton, who I think you may know. I suggest you give the battery power option a listen, it is amazing.

Prokennex,

I've heard the same thing. I'd like to hear one. Anyone?

tvad4,

I think that I may know what you are talking about but want to make sure.

"Wet" in studio terms is often thought of as being real reverberant, or a song having lots of 'verb on a vocal, drum, etc.

If dry is the opposite, do you mean that the EMM doesn't have a "live" presentation? Maybe that it's
kinda lifelike and lacking dynamics?

Just want to know what dry means.

Hi-acuity

tvad4 · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Sep 2006, 01:55 am »

Dry means lacking life, drive and not sounding like real music. The EMM gear is just lackluster, IMO. Like eating rice cakes. They fill you up, but you don't really enjoy the process of eating them.

Hi-acuity · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Sep 2006, 03:41 pm »

tvad4,

Thank you for your definition of dry. I understand.

Hi-acuity

grantb · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Sep 2006, 04:41 pm »

Greetings All,

I am the person who visited Jim this past weekend. Just to clarify a few things, as Jim stated we didn't really have the time to let the Meitner gear really stabilize. I felt that the TRL modded Sony was definately a better match in Jim's system. I would need to hear it in my system to conclude if it is truely competitive with the Meitner pieces. Please bear in mind that these are early examples of his efforts. The DAC6 is not even the 6E, let alone the SE (Special Edition) version that is the current model. Also, the CDSD that we used was one of the very earliest units. As Jim reported, the Phillips transport mechanism sometimes has trouble and the result is that it won't/can't read the TOC.

I mention all of this so that we don't jump to unwarranted conclusions regarding some truely excellent playback gear. I can assure you all that these two pieces are NOT lifeless and dry in my system. It is truely the best digital I have had in my system...to date. Previous digital front ends included the Marantz SA-1 and a Dodson DA-217 MkIID, front-ended by a Pioneer DV-AX10 ($5500 battleship all-format player). If I had to characterize them I would say that they lean toward accuracy and resolution rather then "musicallity", but this is at a very high level.

If Jim had a chance to live with them for an extended period, I believe he might agree.

I have a friend who has both the Zanden and latest Meitner gear, and he alternates between them, not having been able to pick a clear favorite.

I really enjoyed the opportunity to hear Jim's RM30s. His system really sounds good and I found the off-axis sound provided by the CDWG to be quite acceptable.

Regards, Grant

Hi-acuity · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Sep 2006, 03:47 pm »

Thank you Grant for your observations. I hope that you aren't taking offense, because I was just sharing my opinion and not going on any crusade. While I haven't had an opportunity to directly compare in my system, I'm almost certain that I'd prefer my $1900 battery suppied modified player over the Meitner, based on past listening experiences. The TRL player is very musical yet very accurate, with high resolution. It reminds me of playing back my vinyl rig without the hassel. Like Jim, my system mates well with this player.

Hi-acuity

geofstro · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 09:43 am »

This isn't the first thread where I've read very favorable comments on the TRL modded Sony DVP-NS900V and I've already picked up two stock Sony DVP-NS900V's with a view to have TRL work their magic.

prokennex, do you happen to know if the marantz 8001 mod also has a battery power option?

Thanks

geoff

prokennex · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 09:12 pm »

Sorry Geoff, I'm not sure if TRL offers the battery mod with the marantz 8001. There is a thread on audiogon under the digital section called TRL Mods. Might be a good place to post the question.

Ray

earlmarc · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 10:18 pm »

Quote from: prokennex on 2 Oct 2006, 09:12 pm

Sorry Geoff, I'm not sure if TRL offers the battery mod with the marantz 8001. There is a thread on audiogon under the digital section called TRL Mods. Might be a good place to post the question.

Ray

TRL doesn't offer the battery power supply for the Marantz 8001. They don't think its necessary because it sounds better than the TRL Sony DVP-NS900 with battery supply. I will be comparing the TRL Marantz 8001 to the TRL Sony DVP-NS900 this weekend.

geofstro · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Oct 2006, 01:37 pm »

Thanks for clarifying that. I guess it must depend on the quality of your mains to a large extent. I favour taking the mains out of the equation wherever feasible.

BTW RibbonSpeakers.net, did you have a chance to try the TRL'd Sony into the Meitner DAC? I'm wondering how it fares when used purely as a transport, and what it sounds like in comparison to Meitners' own transport with his DAC.

Thanks

geoff

James Romeyn · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Oct 2006, 04:48 pm »

Nope, didn't try it. I get the distinct impression from TRL this player's magic is in using it as a one-piece, & mating it w/ an outboard DAC will not be anything special.

Jimbo

PS I'm moving & selling this TRL for $1100; $1300 was invested. Will replace after I move w/ another TRL, probably w/ battery supply.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Oct 2006, 04:51 pm »

Sooooo. . .This is marketing?

James Romeyn · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Oct 2006, 05:51 pm »

Here's my house. That's a for sale sign on the left.

I decided to get the battery supply TRL after hearing the Meitner, which had great bass & stage qualities. In other words, it took hearing an $18k player in my own room to make me want to upgrade. I happen to be moving out of state (good riddance), so it's one less item to move.

If I was someone else reading of an $1100 player competitive w/ an $18k player, I'd probably be more interested in trying the $1100 player. The other member who brought over the Meitner recieved a grand total of some portion of a fruit/cheese/cracker tray & some fruit juice for his looong ride home. I owe him more than that for exposing me to some outstanding music & allowing me the opportunity to hear such an exotic & highly respected player in my own sound room.

I went to CES '06 intending to spend up to $10k msrp for a DAC or one-box player. I'm happy I spent $1300 on the TRL & will replace it w/ another TRL w/ battery supply.

You should try my TRL, Miklorsmith. A trial period w/ full reimbursement is negotiable. You won't return it. What are using now?

miklorsmith · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Oct 2006, 06:17 pm »

A RWA SB-3 for normal duties and a Modwright modded Music Hall for CD. Both are run digitally to a TacT 2.2XP. I split time between using the TacT DACs and an Ack! 2.0 for conversion. My other system is a RWA SB-3 straight to a Decware Taboo amp.

I'm happy with all these pieces, though an Altmann DAC is in my future for the big rig. I bought a new mt. bike this year, so stereo purchases are on hold.

Thanks for the offer. I have no doubt of the sincerity of your feelings for the piece, but it just came out funny that the thread focused on its stupendousness, followed days later by an offer to sell said player.

Again, no offense. It was just a bit chucklesome, that's all.

HChi · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Oct 2006, 08:07 pm »

Quote from: earlmarc on 2 Oct 2006, 10:18 pm

TRL doesn't offer the battery power supply for the Marantz 8001. They don't think its necessary because it sounds better than the TRL Sony DVP-NS900 with battery supply. I will be comparing the TRL Marantz 8001 to the TRL Sony DVP-NS900 this weekend.

Please keep us posted.

What PCs and ICs have your guys tried on 900v?

earlmarc · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Oct 2006, 09:19 pm »

I use Black Sand Violet V1 PC and SilverFi Black Series Spirit IC's. Will be trialing the Black Sand Chromuim PC shortly.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Oct 2006, 05:16 am »

When we changed from my 99c pc to the visitor's aftermarket high-end pc ($150-ish), the results were as you might predict...meaning a huge upgrade.

I am a firm believer in all Stan Warren recipe stuff, & use it everywhere: ic's & speakers including internally...except I haven't made the pc's yet because it's more work & I'm a lazy slob (4x conductors & a fish line center to make it more pliable) I have not yet experienced 4x AWG12 but it must be a handful....

geofstro · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Oct 2006, 07:35 am »

Thanks Jim,

I'm currently using the stock Sony 900V through the Altmann attraction DAC. Last night I made some comparisons with and without the Altmann's jitter correction circuitry. With the circuitry off I got the impression timing was also off. There was less toe tap-ability and the urge to get up and dance, with the Cuban music I was playing. I could discern this as soon as a track opened. With the JISCO circuitry on the pRAT was as it should be. Voices and other intruments also sounded smoother. With the circuitry off the sound seemed slightly more incisive, which might seem preferable on some discs. Nevertheless the little bit of added excitement/sharpness is probably due to jitter distortion and so, not recommended

I'm not sure what this says about the Sony as a transport. I'm very happy with the sound of the stock unit through the Altmann with the JISCO on and it betters my older Sony DVP-S7000 as a transport. I was hoping to have the mods done and use it as a battery powered transport to feed the Altmann. I also intend to use it as a standalone CDP and compare the two.

geoff