Visaton B200, Silver Iris or Hammer Dynamics S12?

Jolojl · « **on:** 22 Sep 2006, 05:55 am »

I'm in need of some advice from persons who have heard these speakers. I'm using a NOS DAC (Derek Shek), a DIY Paradise Charlize and (currently) a pair of Snell K original. Cables and ICs are Paul Speltz'. Music: jazz, blues, classical and some classical rock.

I haven't heard any of the speakers I'm looking at. Of the open baffle alternatives I'm leaning towards the Iris because of it's (as I have understood) fuller frequency range, but I'm also very curious about the Hammer (at least with regard to the constructor's intentions: "The S-12 represents my efforts to create a loudspeaker that sounds like Quad ESL 57s with much greater dynamic range, sensitivity and another octave on the bass-end"). Budget is an issue. I know this is an open baffle thread, but maybe some open baffler has had the experience of the Hammers as well.

Advice or opinions anyone?

Thanks!
Jolojl

hurdy_gurdyman · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 02:34 pm »

I haven't heard the B200 yet, but I have heard a Hammer Dynamics and the Silver Iris. To me, the SI sounds much more natural. Dynamics are possibly a bit greater on the SI as well, but didn't hear them side by side, so can't say for sure. Bass is more natural sounding on the SI.

Dave

Jolojl · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 03:33 pm »

Hi Dave!

That's very important info, and I will keep it in mind, it's really a very important factor to me, a "natural" sound (difficult to pin down of course what that is). And I'm leaning more and more towards the Iris. Also one can start with just the Iris and add the Augies if one feels the need.

Thanks!

Johan

Brad · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 04:38 pm »

I just looked up your Derek Shek DAC - thanks!!
Looks like a nice DAC

(back to thread now)

Jolojl · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 08:52 pm »

Hi Brad!

Yes, I'm very happy with the DAC. Alive and natural with good hifi-features (soundstage, image, dynamics etc.), sometimes a little recessed in the mids, but clearly worth a try if one has 200 USD to spare (be sure to play it about 200 hours though before final judgement...). Besides, Derek is really very nice and helpful: I bought my DAC 3-4 months ago and still send him an e-mail from time to time with questions and so.

I would also like to try the DIY Paradise Monica and Audio Zone's NOS DAC. Have you tried any of them (maybe another thread

)?

Thanks!

Johan

Jolojl · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 10:27 am »

Thanks for the advice hurdy_gurdyman: Silver Iris ordered. I think this is a good option. Also, Darrel and Diana are very nice and helpful.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 02:54 am »

Well Jolojl, what do you think of the Iris.....
Personally, I think mine are an excellent addition to "the room".

Bob

Dmason · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 03:32 am »

Don't be shy now Dave, - he is too modest. ...Hurdy Gurdyman's crossover rework for the Silver Iris apparently has transformed it into something really good. I have thought for some time that an all out, bi-amped, active XO Iris with a T amp on the cone, and SET on the diaphragm would be just outstanding. Stunning. I think this would be an OB benchmark. As it is, with my friend's new XO, I really think I need to try the Silver Iris. Haven't heard it, but I sense it is highly musical. I have heard nothing but praise for your efforts Dave, take a bow on the OB Circle my friend

I should add that it was four years ago, when I slapped an Eminence 12CX onto a sheet of concrete-smeared plywood, sat back in my chair in stunned silence at the effect. I had read about HG Dave's exploits, and one of the first things I did was to email him, so one of the first people to learn of my epiphany was Hurdy Gurdy Dave, whom also gave me the idea. So it actually was Dave who lit the match on the famed driver-rolling extravaganze, and OB experiments, AND the B200.

Alot of people at this time thought the "open baffle" stuff was nonsense, -gutless sounding, fringe element crap. Now there is some sort of race on, I keep seeing new entrants into the fray from monkey coffin specialists; not that they are selling out in any way, rather, in my opinion, they are trying this schtick and seeing the light: that every damn tune is a live event. It was Dave with the bent, "just try it," like the original firestarter post on the DarkStar thread, which actually lit the match. I wonder what the Iris would look like in a cabinet styled ~like a Tannoy Westminster?

hurdy_gurdyman · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 03:53 am »

Thanks Dan. I'd take a bow, but my back is to sore from spending most of the last two days building XO's.

Dave

Jolojl · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 11:15 am »

Hi Bob!

My Irises are still being run-in and are now starting to sound really good, specially with some rock music. I will post comments and pictures of my speakers on the Hawthorne Forum this week-end probably.

Johan

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 12:15 pm »

Good deal Johan! Glad to hear your happy so far.
Are you "jolojl" there too?

Bob

scorpion · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 01:32 pm »

Hi Jolojl,

Congratulations to your Irises. It is a good thing to have new speakers to compare. As we have had some postings in the Swedish Hi-Fi Forum I can assure you that my B200s now run to perfection in my baffles, as you perhaps have noticed in the 'MOX' thread. I had the opportunity to listen to the new Jamo OBs (11.500 $/pair) in the Arken H-Fi Show in Gothenburg last month and I would say that I would not hesitate to put my B200s up in comparison to them any minute. Sound judged, not woodwork!

/Erling

hurdy_gurdyman · « **Reply #12 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 02:33 pm »

I can think of several decent drivers that could do as well or better on a decent made baffle than some of the over-priced commercial offerings I've read about lately. Some of those prices are CRAZY!

Dave

scorpion · « **Reply #13 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 03:09 pm »

Dave,

The Jamos sound definitely OB and as such are interesting addings to a renowned manufacturer's supply. An achievment as such. But still
lagging way behind us entusiasts. The Jamo is a three way design and especially the Seas highbass midrange (although an extremly praised element) is not up to B200 standards of response. Crossover frequencies are also not well chosen, resulting in treble sibiliance. I would never choose to crossover in the 200 - 4000 range. So despite elements chosen are about the best there are more care should have gone into all
over response.

/Erling

Jolojl · « **Reply #14 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 08:52 pm »

Hi Bob! I haven't registered yet at Darrel's forum: it will probably be Jolojl or just Johan. The Irises really need break-in time but are also getting better and better and very good already with some music. I hope to post just glad comments on the Forum and hopefully that will be the case this week-end. See you there!

Hi Erling/scorpion (or Tjena

)!
I think we have met once or twice on the Swedish HiFiForum.nu. And I have also seen some of your posts here at AudioCircle. You are much more experienced than I am with OBs. I wonder how many Swedes apart from us have an OB solution according to the threads here. If you live in Stockholm I would gladly meet and share OB experiences: I'd really like to audition the Visatons (BTW, do you use them with or without a sub/bass driver?). You are very welcome to audition the Irises whenever you would like to, just send me an e-mail at johan.lofstrom(a)glocalnet.net. I'll post pictures on HiFiForum too this week-end, just to show the other members there how an Iris looks like and maybe get some interest going on OBs. Couldn't you post some pictures there of your Visatons? I'm sure people would get hooked onto the idea of OBs

Hi Dave/hurdy_gurdyman!
Just want to say hi! You we're actually one of my main influences when choosing an OB driver. I run the Irises without the Augies: my room is just about 12 X 10 feet, so I think the Augies would be a bit of an over-kill at the moment. And the Irises do serious bass without her brother Augie. However if I stay with the Irises as my main speaker (I will know after break-in) I think I would go baffleless, and then I would need to add the Augies. By what I have read I think I might be using one of your cross-overs or cross-over designs

Thanks! See you here or at Darrel's

Johan

scorpion · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 09:04 pm »

Hi Jolojl,

Well, Bo Hansson of Opus 3 has OBs (but also cellarbased horns) and he is a living legend in Sweden. I first met him 1972 and has followed him since then. Then you have Josef Svalander (see his web) whom I also met in the 70ties when I helped my father who was a public librarian in Burseryd to get some really good stereo equipment for the public library. At that time I am certain they were the best equipped library in the Swedish countryside without spending a fortune on equipment. I brought my Ciares to the DIY-meeting in Gothenburg in April with some success. If there is another meeting next year I will bring the B200s and they will turn the world upside down. But you are right, we have a mission. I live in Söderköping and we will meet some day. This time I have promised myself to do a real good carpenter work with my baffles so they are not yet ready for photos. At the moment only one pair in my ordinary Ciare baffles. You can equlize bass and get about 90 db out without distortion on acoustic music. That is as markC remarked not bad at all. It is very tempting to add another pair of B200s for the low end placed low on baffles. They would be very easy to integrate and would bring bass capabilities up to almost 100 dB. In a living room you can't go higher.

/Erling

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 09:27 pm »

Quote from: Jolojl on 19 Oct 2006, 08:52 pm

By what I have read I think I might be using one of your cross-overs or cross-over designs

Yes, the newly redesigned XO comes with every driver!

Bob

hurdy_gurdyman · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 12:30 am »

Quote from: Jolojl on 19 Oct 2006, 08:52 pm

Hi Dave/hurdy_gurdyman!
Just want to say hi! You we're actually one of my main influences when choosing an OB driver. I run the Irises without the Augies: my room is just about 12 X 10 feet, so I think the Augies would be a bit of an over-kill at the moment. And the Irises do serious bass without her brother Augie. However if I stay with the Irises as my main speaker (I will know after break-in) I think I would go baffleless, and then I would need to add the Augies. By what I have read I think I might be using one of your cross-overs or cross-over designs Thanks! See you here or at Darrel's

Johan

Johan,

Glad to make your acquaintance!

My SI's took about three weeks to break in. They were somewhat harsh before break-in.

As good as I think the SI Coaxials are, I think they sound better with a minimal sized baffle and the Augies handling the deeper bass. It seems to improve overall clarity with the coaxials up in the air and baffle size smaller, which just naturally gives less bass. The idea of no baffle at all with the Augies doing the bass may be a good one.

I haven't had the SI's in a room as small as yours, but I suspect that small of a room may present challenges. Some form of diffusion to make the room appear bigger might be an idea. The coaxials are powerful drivers and like bigger rooms, but I'm sure can be made to work in a smaller room. How far are they from the wall behind them and the side walls? I've found, even in my much bigger room, that being close to the corners can cause a muffled effect (at least with my to big of baffles). I suspect this is true to some extent with any OB, but more so with the SI's because of the big full bass they are capable of.

Let us know how they sound when fully broken in.

BTW, if the crossover has a wood base it's one of mine.

Dave

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 01:34 pm »

I agree about the baffle size Dave, I might be trimming mine down one of these days (still leaving enough room for an Augie to be added latter, of course). It changed "a little something" when I installed it in the baffle, compared to when they were on thier boxes laying on the floor, so some trimming/tweeking might in order. May also be burn-in happening, so I'm not to eager to grab a saw just yet. I'll wait untill the driver tells me it's ready.

Bob

hurdy_gurdyman · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 02:05 pm »

The SI's are the only driver I can think of that seems to beg to put in an ever smaller baffle. I suspect the optimum size will end up being a baffle just wide enough to hold the driver and just tall enough to hold it at ear height when listening. No wings at all.

Dave