[fajimr]

I've seen some discussion on 'near field' listening in the 'am i screwed with this room' thread and didn't want to hijack the thread.....

so what is it?  how do you do it? and why does it matter?

this quote by john in copenhagen, caught my interest:

"By listening in the near field you will hear the best or nearly the best from your speakers (at low to moderate volumes) and, when you compare this sound with what you hear ordinarily, this will tell you how your room and furniture are affecting the sound.  If you hear this glare and sibilence in the near field, these are not room prblems, they are system problems.  Near field listening helps to define what are system problems and what are room problems."

TIA- jim

[Bill Baker]

Hello Jim,
 Nearfield listening helps to take the room acoustics out of the equation. This is the point John was making. Nearfield is simply having your listening position very close to your speakers and having them spaced much closer together.  Being closer to the speakers allows you to hear all the information before the room has a chance to influence it.

[fajimr]

thanks Bill... I'll have to give it a try although I wonder what exactly I will hear ??  so much of what I love about a good system is the feeling of being there... might be an interesting experiment though.  so when you say 'close together' what are we talking here? 

[WEEZ]

I agree with Bill.

There is a possible caveat to nearfield listening. Some speakers use a steeper slope in their crossover, and are meant to be listened to a bit further back for optimum 'blending'. Sitting too close to such a speaker may not work as well as intended.

If your speakers are single driver; or speakers with a 1st order crossover (6db/octave); nearfield listening can be really nice. A 6' triangle: speaker to speaker to listener might be worth a try.

WEEZ

[John Casler]

thanks Bill... I'll have to give it a try although I wonder what exactly I will hear ??  so much of what I love about a good system is the feeling of being there... might be an interesting experiment though.  so when you say 'close together' what are we talking here? 

In general Nearfield (implemented properly) will "take you" to the performance.  It will sound as if you are where the mike was (hopefully front row center )

Farfield, then will "bring the perfromance to your room" (which means you will also hear your room more)

[fajimr]

If your speakers are single driver; or speakers with a 1st order crossover (6db/octave); nearfield listening can be really nice. A 6' triangle: speaker to speaker to listener might be worth a try.

o.k. now I am starting to get confused... not that difficult now as I've been staring at this computer for most of the day 
I've got Ellis 1801B speakers which do have a crossover and I actually have approximately a 6' triangle (assuming that means 6' from speaker to speaker and 6' from speakers to listening position- not 6' total).  So I assume that I am already in a nearfield position.  I get a sense of a nice soundstage from this position with voices and instruments behind the speakers (so maybe 8 feet away from me)- I don't think of this where the mike necessarily is (as per John) but as in the first couple rows out.  If I go father back into the room, I lose that soundstage although the music still sounds clear    So am I already in the nearfield position and am I have the experience I am supposed to have (o.k. that last part was a joke... I like the experience just fine).

BUT that means I would need to have a pretty large room for anything else- my room is about 12 feet wide and 22 feet long.  My speakers are out about 3 feet from the rear wall and side walls so I can't imagine creating a larger triangle.  Do most people listen with a nearfield set-up?

maybe I should just go home and have a beer and enjoy some music 

[95bcwh]

I love "near field" listening, especially if you have small room, like what I have. but if you have a big enough room, I reckon "far field" listening should outperform "near-field", because you can place the speaker further apart, that should throw a bigger and deeper soundstage, and you can sit further away from the speakers, which means the sound should integrated better.

[Frihed91]

In your case, to take the room out of the equation: (1) pull the speakers 3 feet away from both back and side walls, (2) temporarily get rid of anything between you and the speakers, (3) sit about as close to the speakers as they are apart, a bit morr, and (4) toe in the speakers so they cross about a foot in front of your nose...making sure tweeters are at ear height.  Play at low to moderate voumes.

This is a starting point.  You'll need to play with the speaker position, your own position, and toe in to get the optimum for your ears.

Good luck.  Remember in your case, you are doing this to establish a reference "sound" and find out what is causing the sound qualities you don't like with the current set up.  By settin up this way, you are pretty much avoiding most effects of the first-order reflections in your room.

Try not to complicate this.  It really is trial and error.  It's a hobby, remember.  It's fun, remember.

[Ethan Winer]

Jim,

> so what is it?  how do you do it? and why does it matter? <

Just to clarify further:

Listening close to the loudspeakers does not avoid all problems with the room, though it can reduce some of the most detrimental effects. Listening close does not avoid the inevitable peaks and deep nulls at low frequencies, nor does it reduce ringing at low frequencies which are just as bad as the peaks and nulls. The only way to truly "remove" the room is to treat it with bass traps, first reflection panels, and other absorbers (or diffusors in some cases). Once that's done you can sit farther back, and still hear the music as the mix engineers intended.

Also:

"By listening in the near field you will hear the best or nearly the best from your speakers (at low to moderate volumes) <

That "low to moderate volumes" is misleading. The only way that could work is if you play music so softly that all reflections at mid and high frequencies are pushed below the threshold of audibility. Since echoes are often as little as 10 dB below the music, you'd have to listen very softly in most rooms to not hear the echoes and excess ambience.

--Ethan

[Frihed91]

You're right, the reflections are always going t be there as long as you can hear the music, but if you get the speakers far enough away from the walls and don't overdo the volume, it's a good way for someone with a room from hell to get a start at better sound and begin to improve things from there.  In my summer cottage, adding drapes behind the speakers helped a lot, even though the speakers were about 5 feet from the back walls, so you are right.

I have seen many people start adding room treatments without any idea about their room's particular problems.  I am at the opposite extreme, I won't even try to treat the room in my flat.

[jqp]

Take it simple and slow. Don't rearrange everything if it is just not worth it. The source, amplification, and speakers are probably 90% of what you will hear for 90% the possible arrangements anyway.

Imagine the ultimate nearfiled listening: headphones - no echo or interference from the walls, floors furniture or ceiling.

Now imagine laying on the floor with your head between two speakers: still not a lot of interference.

Now imagine sitting in a chair very close to the the two speakers, forming that isoceles triangle. If you are in the middle of a large carpeted room, not much interference.

Now keep moving back until you are on your couch as close to the speakers as is resonable for everyday life in the house. Then you can try to absorb/diffuse between you and the first reflections if needed, using thing such as thick padding temporarily to test the effects. Maybe between your head and the back wall. Maybe between the point that the speakers reflect off the side walls to your ears (you can use a mirror on the wall to see where this would be).

If this doesn't seem to make much of a difference, then don't bother treating the room any further. The carpeting you have may be pretty good already.

The cost of lots of acoustic treatments to truly affect the room could approach the cost of your system! Often spending lots of money on these treatments makes more sense to me if you have a dedicated listening room. I would try to use things you already have in the house, probably to do more diffusion in the right places, to stop direct/early reflections, than to try to absorb them.

It is often better to put your speakers on the long wall. That way you can angle the speakers so that the reflections don't cause as many problems for you. Speakers are designed differently so this is a general statement.