[JLM]

Ryan,

Knowing what the source of the vibrations is/are is the true place to start.  A "shotgun" approach may lead you to the "dark side" of tuning, like an overdamped room, and do more harm than good.  OTOH keeping the damn volume down  , enclosing tubes, having heavy equipment to start with, and providing a solid support for equipment are all good places to start.  In your example there is no specific airborne isolation (may or may not be important in your case) or mention of support (many of the common sense sort of guys recommend "soft" supports for wooden floors and spikes for concrete slabs).

To really get into it, I'd refer you to SRL.  I'm really impressed with their scientific approach and their prices  .


Newbuyer,

Microphonics, like airborne vibrations or electronics self noise are perceivable, primarily because they are associated with low power components.  I suppose it's because vibration (mechanical energy) gets converted into heat, which is in essence the movement of subatomic particles.  This increased movement probably interferes with the passage of electrons.

[gooberdude]

JLM, thanks!   that's a teriffic explanation of 3 very real issues.    


For me, internal chassis vibes are far more detrimental than floor & airborne vibrations.   By this, i mean its easy to hear the damage internal vibes impart once they are removed...i can't say the same about the other 2.     someone with bouncy wooden floors might disagree though!!!  


what stinks about any attempt to address any or all 3 of these issues is the complexity & cost.   i've scoured mfgr websites and forums for a few years intent on utilizing suspended draining schemes and, for me, mapleshade is the clear winner for the brass & timbernation.com for the tonewood.  walker audio also has cool stuff, their tech is similar to MS but MS is less $.  draining schemes are a great way to get cheap gear to sound good.     the suspended platform eliminates the need to drain the vibes all the way to the floor since the plat itself absorbs the vibes.

another bad attribute is that, so far, its an all-or-nothing type of tweak.  inserting generic products leads to poor performance.   Just coupling or just isolating is a really bad idea typically.   The TVC sounds killer with the pointed footers just sitting on the mdf shelf, but adding the suspended plat changed things much more drastically (as i reported prior).

i've tried all sorts of other methods: rollerball's outta ball bearings and soda cans, wood blocks from 2"x4"'s, BDR pucks, generic brass cones and tried Cerapucks...nothing is in the same theatre as the MS pointed brass.

the change that a whacked out set-up like this produces isn't subtle or simply 'worthwhile' - it's enormous, wicked really.   all the positive attributes of this TVC leap out with sweet ferocity.  i can listen a few clicks less on the volume knob too, which may be due to the ridiculous increase in bass.  any HF issues are gone 100% and the noise floor dropped dramatically.   just adding the plat assembly made crazy shit happen.

In a perfect world, the rack would take care of all these issues.  and maybe ultra hi-end ones do...   my tinkering leads me to believe that each peace of gear should be treated independently though.

the set-up i'm now using for the TVC can be used with nearly every amp, preamp, turntable and power supply available...save for tt's with suspensions.   i think the wood bottomed TVC's may have a slight advantage with these pointed footers due to the sharp spikes seated in the wood.  However, the spiked footers do amazing things to metal bottomed chassis as well.  

there's no balancing act, the TVC is locked into the platform, like its bolted down.  the only force that can remove it from the footers is a direct lift.  otherwise its seated securely and installation is a 1 man job.   When knocked into, the contraption wobbles like a super stiff bowl of jello...the A-S weight on my tt barely moves when disturbed.

What kills the whole Mapleshade system is when flat, not pointed, footers or weights are used.  like replacing nice cabling with stock - the soundstage closes in.  

seems like many of the products on the market both couple & isolate at the same time...this is perplexing to me.     the MS system makes sense & sounds amazing (once you've experienced it).  it'd be great if someone can find a set-up that works the same but only requires 2" of height and not much cash!

the fact that their systems use the 2 materials most musical instruments are made from leads me to the conclusion that 'why' this works is quite old school knowledge.  it's a leap of faith to think that what 's good for a guitar, trumpet or drum is good for a TVC or amplifier.  i rationalize it all to 'music', and enjoy the hell outta the effects of vibration draining.  


My TVC took close to 500 hrs to sound right....for a month i listenend to it after work but while sleeping and at work i burned it in with a cable tv box.   transformers take a while to burn in i think.


GD

[akmal00]

Just to add more pics of my dual mono reference TVC especially to those that cannot view them earlier.

For those who still cannot view, dunno, I can view using Firefox 2.0 and IE version 6.0. Anything I am doing wrong. Copying the url from imagestation and kodak gallery.

http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51378/thumb_ebc4932a.jpg

http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51378/thumb_ebc493bd.jpg

[reddmadder]

Hi,
 Anyone have an opinion about pairing the tvc with a 300B set intergrated ?
 Thanks
p.s I also use MS brass footers with the MS Samson rack...awesome tweak.

[gooberdude]

Hey akmal00, thanks for the pics - is that the Promitheus Phono Preamp?   If so, what are your thoughts of it compared to other phono pre's you've owned?

the waxed TVC with the Ebony knobs looks sooooo cool!   aa


And Redmadder, could you post a picture of your set-up?     have you compared the flat top MS footers to the pointed ones and played with weights on top?   A Samson rack is high up on my wish list...
for an interesting audbile tweak, try grounding your rack.   attach a thin wire to connect all 3 legs then run a wire to the earth lug on your phono preamp.  the noise floor drops...

[rollo]

Hello All,    I'm new to the Circle, just thought I'd put in my thoughts on footers.The Sound Fusion footers are very effective and $10 each.Use them under my Lector CDP7tl and power supply of same.Worked alot better than the MS products we tried.When I receive my Promitheus [waiting about 6 weeks so far] I,ll let you know the results.By the way the wood plinth looks great.Is it made with Russian plywood?and how thick?    Happy Trails rollo

[jaspal kallar]

Hi,

Hi I'm new here.

My Cyrus preamp could not be fixed. So I looked at other active ones. My budget seems tight. I stumbled upon the Luminous Axiom RCA version. For 175 USD including shipping I thought yes perfect. Then further research brought me here.

So, has anybody actually compared the Axiom to the Promitheus ?

The Luminous Axiom RCA version means I have to get a new RCA cable (the other is Balanced XLR),  or I have to change the XLR to RCA. Both options add considerable additional cost.

One thing. My DAC is only RCA out, no XLR. However, my Power amps can take both XLR or RCA. With my old Cyrus preamp I used Balanced XLR between the pre and power and RCA between the DAC and the preamp.
I want to continue with this. Will the Promitheus be ok for this?
 
   - jaspal
 

[GHM]

Hi,

Hi I'm new here.

My Cyrus preamp could not be fixed. So I looked at other active ones. My budget seems tight. I stumbled upon the Luminous Axiom RCA version. For 175 USD including shipping I thought yes perfect. Then further research brought me here.

So, has anybody actually compared the Axiom to the Promitheus ?

The Luminous Axiom RCA version means I have to get a new RCA cable (the other is Balanced XLR),  or I have to change the XLR to RCA. Both options add considerable additional cost.

One thing. My DAC is only RCA out, no XLR. However, my Power amps can take both XLR or RCA. With my old Cyrus preamp I used Balanced XLR between the pre and power and RCA between the DAC and the preamp.
I want to continue with this. Will the Promitheus be ok for this?
 
   - jaspal
 

Here jaspal go back to Page 5 of the link. River dog comments he used the Luminous unit you speak of before the TVC and how they compare. You should be just fine using the TVC in the same fashion.

Hello All,    I'm new to the Circle, just thought I'd put in my thoughts on footers.The Sound Fusion footers are very effective and $10 each.Use them under my Lector CDP7tl and power supply of same.Worked alot better than the MS products we tried.When I receive my Promitheus [waiting about 6 weeks so far] I,ll let you know the results.By the way the wood plinth looks great.Is it made with Russian plywood?and how thick?    Happy Trails rollo

Thanks Rollo for the heads up on the footers and welcome to AC!
I've communicated with you on zerogain. Good to see you around here.
Rollo where can I find these Sound Fusion footers. I found one company by this name..the footers looked cool but $130 for a set.

Well I went back and looked again. Is this the company you referring to Sound Boosters?

Hi,
 Anyone have an opinion about pairing the tvc with a 300B set intergrated ?
 Thanks
p.s I also use MS brass footers with the MS Samson rack...awesome tweak.

I've seen quite a few setups on the net that use TVCs with tube amps. You'll find plenty of reviews on this as well. Srajan likes to pair the TVCs up with tubes on 6moons. I think PaulFolbrecht loves the combo of TVC and tubes. He did a review of his resident TVC and tubed monoblocks on the site some where if I'm not mistaken.

Welcome to AC all the new guys! Good to see some more Audiophiles coming out of the woodwork!

[reddmadder]

Gooberdude,
      I don't have a phone pre so grounding is not something I could do.
      Here is a picture ,any thoughts on compatability of the Fi to the TVC?
         Thanks

[jaspal kallar]

Hi GHM, many thanks for your reply. I know a bit cautious but I've been reading a bit more around the subject and wonder if my system is upto it. Below is the specs I provided to the Axiom guy:


Efficiency of your spks in db at 1w/1m:

I don't see this info in my spkr manual.
I've enclosed, however, the the manual  spec. Perhaps some of it may help. Let me know if it doesn't.

Effective Frequency Range:    50Hz - 20kHz ± 2.5dB, -6dB at 38Hz measured at 2m on   reference axis 

Directional Characteristics;    Flat within 2dB from 50Hz - 17kHz up to 30º off reference axis in any direction 

Maximum Output:                  112dB spl on programme peaks under typical listening conditions 

Characteristic Sensitivity Level:   91dB spl at 1m on reference axis for pink noise input of 2.83Vrms band limited 50Hz - 20kHz (anechoic conditions)

Amplifier requirements :            50 - 200W into 4 ohms
Impedance:                 


Input imp. Of your power amp:   10k Ohm (RCA), 22 Ohm (XLR)

Input sensitivity of your power amp in mV:  381 mV (RCA), 775mv (XLR)

Output voltage of your cd player:

I have have 3 box cd player; Transport (coxial) -> Digital Interface Processer (XLR) -> Dac (Audiolab 8000C)


Transport output:
--------------------
Coaxial:  75 Ohm/0.5V p-p   (This is what I use: although I can also use XLR AES/EBU 110 Ohms / 5V p-p)

Digital Interface Processer output
---------------------------------------
From what I understand, although not really sure;

Balanced 110 ohms AES/EBU:  5V p-p  (this is what I use although I can also use Coaxial out: 3V p-p)

Dac Output
-------------
The normal RCA output to the (pre)amp: Output Level 2.0 V rms +/- 0.5B  (Impedance 100 Ohms)[/font][/font]

 
To be honest I don't know what the above really means. So any pointers to if it will be or not suitable welcome


 - jaspal.

[rollo]

GHM, good to hear from you. The site you need is  [email protected]  Whats nice about this product is that you can dial in the effect you desire by reversing the position.They make some interesting products as you will see.One side neutral the other warmer.I use 3 under my Pre, CDP and power supply each one resides on a corian slab 3/4" th. set in a sand plinth.This combo fared better than the MS cones and maple in my rig.I prefer the MS cones and maple under the preamp which will change when the Promitheus arrives [sometime this century].Go figure.Seems to me that all digital requires special isolation and draining while other components just draining.Has anyone else had this result?            Happy listening  rollo

[GHM]

Hi GHM, many thanks for your reply. I know a bit cautious but I've been reading a bit more around the subject and wonder if my system is upto it. Below is the specs I provided to the Axiom guy:


Efficiency of your spks in db at 1w/1m:

I don't see this info in my spkr manual.
I've enclosed, however, the the manual  spec. Perhaps some of it may help. Let me know if it doesn't.

Effective Frequency Range:    50Hz - 20kHz ± 2.5dB, -6dB at 38Hz measured at 2m on   reference axis 

Directional Characteristics;    Flat within 2dB from 50Hz - 17kHz up to 30º off reference axis in any direction 

Maximum Output:                  112dB spl on programme peaks under typical listening conditions 

Characteristic Sensitivity Level:   91dB spl at 1m on reference axis for pink noise input of 2.83Vrms band limited 50Hz - 20kHz (anechoic conditions)

Amplifier requirements :            50 - 200W into 4 ohms
Impedance:                 


Input imp. Of your power amp:   10k Ohm (RCA), 22 Ohm (XLR)

Input sensitivity of your power amp in mV:  381 mV (RCA), 775mv (XLR)

Output voltage of your cd player:

I have have 3 box cd player; Transport (coxial) -> Digital Interface Processer (XLR) -> Dac (Audiolab 8000C)


Transport output:
--------------------
Coaxial:  75 Ohm/0.5V p-p   (This is what I use: although I can also use XLR AES/EBU 110 Ohms / 5V p-p)

Digital Interface Processer output
---------------------------------------
From what I understand, although not really sure;

Balanced 110 ohms AES/EBU:  5V p-p  (this is what I use although I can also use Coaxial out: 3V p-p)

Dac Output
-------------
The normal RCA output to the (pre)amp: Output Level 2.0 V rms +/- 0.5B  (Impedance 100 Ohms)[/font][/font]

 
To be honest I don't know what the above really means. So any pointers to if it will be or not suitable welcome


 - jaspal.

Hi Jaspal,
Well with 5 volts output you can drive several amplifiers at the same time!
You will have nooo problems with a passive like the TVC as far as I can tell.
Correction... I was looking at the wrong specs. At 2 volts you will still be fine. Your output impedance is 100 ohms..also very good.

I see you also use the Monarchy DIP..this is indispensable in my system. I have a hard time listening with out it. Which right now..it is at another AC members home 600 miles away.

From what I see from the specs provided you have a perfect system for passives.

GHM, good to hear from you. The site you need is  [email protected]  Whats nice about this product is that you can dial in the effect you desire by reversing the position.They make some interesting products as you will see.One side neutral the other warmer.I use 3 under my Pre, CDP and power supply each one resides on a corian slab 3/4" th. set in a sand plinth.This combo fared better than the MS cones and maple in my rig.I prefer the MS cones and maple under the preamp which will change when the Promitheus arrives [sometime this century].Go figure.Seems to me that all digital requires special isolation and draining while other components just draining.Has anyone else had this result?            Happy listening  rollo

Thanks Rollo...I thought I had the right site. I've emailed them for details.
Yeah..just waiting myself Rollo..I feel your pain. I communicated with Nicholas recently. He told me he's been working 7 days a week and 16 to 18 hours a day on the TVCs. Talking about over loaded with orders!

He also informed me that he's running out of his old stock copper wire for the trannies. The new stock cost much more(rising prices of core components). So just like everything else in economics the prices will go up a bit. All the orders in now will still be covered at current prices.

[akmal00]

Is that the Promitheus Phono Preamp?   If so, what are your thoughts of it compared to other phono pre's you've owned?

I owned the phono preamp from Promitheus for 3 months, prior to that I used my previous TT using the phono inputs of a Cyrus 1 and then an Audiolab 8000A. For more than ten years I took an exodus away from LP's. When I got back to listening to my LP's my current amp did not have a phono input. So for few months I was reviewing a few phono preamps. They were:

1) Project phonobox
2) NAD PP2
3) Goldring phono preamp
4) Dynavector P75

and then I got to listen to a friend's Promitheus phono preamp.

The only two that I will say worth listening to seriously as the top contenders are the Dynavector and Promitheus. The NAD and Project were good value amps. The promitheus preamp goes along similar lines to the TVC. It lets the music comes through. In my opinion, the source is more important. It's more flexible to than the P75. You have the independence to change the input between MM/ MC and the gain from 38 db to 66 db. Your choice of catridge is easier. At the price range there's nothing much better. Mine is the first generation preamp. Now it's been improved with newer components I heard. You can even get the same casing as the TVC. The power supply is separate. See the pic.

[jaspal kallar]

GHM, thanks for taking the time to run over my specs, much appreciated. I remember when my DIP went in for repair for about a month I really missed it. Upto then I had realised what an important part it played. I wonder though if you are using a good power cord on your DIP. If my memory serves me right it did make a difference. Maybe something to try out.

   - jaspal.

[rollo]

Hey GHM,  Received an email from nicholas last evening.He's shipping the TVC this week.After break in we wil pit two Bent units with custom maple enclosures which are internaly shielding,one copper,one stainless steel.The bent units to date have  replaced the following actives in our club members systems;Copland,Wright,Loecsh&weisner and Cat SL1 with SL3 power supply.A worthy group indeed.
   Seems to me TVC's could very well be the future.Just imagine your favorite amp with an internal TVC or CDP for that matter.Thanks to Nicholas Chua we will be able to obtain have a quality TVC for a very fair and reasonable price.Man what else can I say.Is it coincidence that Nicholas has the same name as Santa,I don't think so.     
     Happy Listening  rollo

[jrebman]

Hello,

I'm new to this circle though I've been lurking for a while checking out things like the Altmann, Paradisea, etc.  I read through this entire thread yesterday and my head hurts trying to digest it all at once so I was wondering if anybody's had any experience with the following kind of configuration, which I'm currently putting together for my office system:

It will be a fairly simple, straightforward system, at least to begin with (always need that disclaimer) -- a fully modded SB2 feeding a Music Reference 6EM7 SET amp into a pair of Abbys.  I may eventually add an external DAC, and possibly a sub, but that's down the road a bit.

I don't want to put anything but the amp and speakers together on the far wall, and would like to keep the SB2 and potential TVC near the listening position, which is only about 7 feet from the front of the speakers -- so figure worst case, 12 feet of interconnect from TVC out to amp ins.

The modded SB 2 can output 1.1 vrms and can drive loads as low as 5 k comfortably.  The sensitivity of the 6EM7 amp is 1 vrms for full power (2.5 watts) and 150k input impedance.

I may also occasionally want to use my C.I. VMB-1s, but I don't know the sensitivity or input impedance for those offhand.

So, the million dollar question is: does anybody out there have any experience with a similar setup, and a) will it work, and b) what effect on the sound does it have?

Thanks for any help/advice,

Jim

[GHM]

GHM, thanks for taking the time to run over my specs, much appreciated. I remember when my DIP went in for repair for about a month I really missed it. Upto then I had realised what an important part it played. I wonder though if you are using a good power cord on your DIP. If my memory serves me right it did make a difference. Maybe something to try out.

   - jaspal.

Thanks Jaspal,
I don't use the stock cord with my DIP. I use a 14 gauge Volex. It seems to do the job pretty well. I haven't tried anything more expensive than that with it though. I use Volex on all my equipment that's powered. For not much money..the cords are very good.

Hey GHM,  Received an email from nicholas last evening.He's shipping the TVC this week.After break in we wil pit two Bent units with custom maple enclosures which are internaly shielding,one copper,one stainless steel.The bent units to date have  replaced the following actives in our club members systems;Copland,Wright,Loecsh&weisner and Cat SL1 with SL3 power supply.A worthy group indeed.
   Seems to me TVC's could very well be the future.Just imagine your favorite amp with an internal TVC or CDP for that matter.Thanks to Nicholas Chua we will be able to obtain have a quality TVC for a very fair and reasonable price.Man what else can I say.Is it coincidence that Nicholas has the same name as Santa,I don't think so.    
     Happy Listening  rollo

Rollo that's good to know..I know I as well as others are really excited about finally getting their units. Mine was supposed to go out on Monday. Hopefully it is in the same batch as yours. I'll keep my fingers crossed! I haven't had any confirmation from Nick that the package actually shipped..so I can only hope.

 You guys are playing with the some heavy hitting actives!WOW!
I know the TVC will be in my future for years to come! It's just one of those items on my never to sale list.

Please let us know how it goes with the shootout. You mentioned previously on zerogain that the speakers used are Pipedreams? Is that correct?

Thanks

Hello,

I'm new to this circle though I've been lurking for a while checking out things like the Altmann, Paradisea, etc.  I read through this entire thread yesterday and my head hurts trying to digest it all at once so I was wondering if anybody's had any experience with the following kind of configuration, which I'm currently putting together for my office system:

It will be a fairly simple, straightforward system, at least to begin with (always need that disclaimer) -- a fully modded SB2 feeding a Music Reference 6EM7 SET amp into a pair of Abbys.  I may eventually add an external DAC, and possibly a sub, but that's down the road a bit.

I don't want to put anything but the amp and speakers together on the far wall, and would like to keep the SB2 and potential TVC near the listening position, which is only about 7 feet from the front of the speakers -- so figure worst case, 12 feet of interconnect from TVC out to amp ins.

The modded SB 2 can output 1.1 vrms and can drive loads as low as 5 k comfortably.  The sensitivity of the 6EM7 amp is 1 vrms for full power (2.5 watts) and 150k input impedance.

I may also occasionally want to use my C.I. VMB-1s, but I don't know the sensitivity or input impedance for those offhand.

So, the million dollar question is: does anybody out there have any experience with a similar setup, and a) will it work, and b) what effect on the sound does it have?

Thanks for any help/advice,

Jim

Jim looks like the sensitivity is great on your amplifier. The voltage of the SB3 is a little low. It will most likely work, but you would have to turn the volume of the TVC up quite a bit to get adequate SPLs. Adding a DAC with good output would be the best option or using a buffer in front of the SB3. I would go for the DAC first..maybe something like the Paradisea or MHDT's other buffered DAC or maybe something similar?

You want a little headroom on the voltage output... 1.1 volts won't give you that. I wouldn't use anything less than 2 volts output with any passive pre.

[jrebman]

Jim looks like the sensitivity is great on your amplifier. The voltage of the SB3 is a little low. It will most likely work, but you would have to turn the volume of the TVC up quite a bit to get adequate SPLs. Adding a DAC with good output would be the best option or using a buffer in front of the SB3. I would go for the DAC first..maybe something like the Paradisea or MHDT's other buffered DAC or maybe something similar?

You want a little headroom on the voltage output... 1.1 volts won't give you that. I wouldn't use anything less than 2 volts output with any passive pre.
[/quote]

GHM,

Thanks for your reply.  Yes, the 1.1 vrms out of the modded SB2 is low, but at least for the time being, it should suffice as this system probably won't really be cranked up very often, if at all.  For that I'd just go up to my living room.  And really, there theoretically shouldn't be any sonic penalty for cranking the TVC all the way up anyway.

Yes, I think there is a Paradisea in my future as I just bought a trio of tubes from tvad4 just for this.

Unrelated, but I also think I'm going to swap drivers in the Abbys to the FF-166k, which are supposed to be a better match for near-field listening -- the added benefit is that they have better bottom end extension which in theory at least should provide a sense of weight to the volume for lower listening levels.  Just trying to maximize a simple system in a small space.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

-- Jim

[GHM]

Unrelated, but I also think I'm going to swap drivers in the Abbys to the FF-166k, which are supposed to be a better match for near-field listening -- the added benefit is that they have better bottom end extension which in theory at least should provide a sense of weight to the volume for lower listening levels.  Just trying to maximize a simple system in a small space.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

-- Jim

I can't remember what drivers in the Abbys that I heard,but I enjoyed them a lot!
They are beautiful sounding speakers IMHO and great at low volumes. I was thinking more along the lines of having loss in bass and other attributes of the TVC when using low voltage input. Hey..give it a try and see how it goes. Right now my loaner TVC is on its way to Delaware this week. If you want to test one out without purchasing one... let me know. Once the AC member finishes with it there..it will be free for others to give it a spin.

ATB,
Gymane

[jrebman]

I can't remember what drivers in the Abbys that I heard,but I enjoyed them a lot!
They are beautiful sounding speakers IMHO and great at low volumes. I was thinking more along the lines of having loss in bass and other attributes of the TVC when using low voltage input. Hey..give it a try and see how it goes. Right now my loaner TVC is on its way to Delaware this week. If you want to test one out without purchasing one... let me know. Once the AC member finishes with it there..it will be free for others to give it a spin.

ATB,
Gymane

That's really great of you to offer, and I may just take you up on it but since Wayne has a month long backlog on SB mods, and hasn't told me to send mine in yet, my guess is that it isn't going to be until sometime in January before I'm ready to test it out.

I do have 2 other stock SB3s here, but as they put out a higher voltage it wouldn't be much of a test.

I really like my Abbys but with the normal FE-166E drivers they don't do loud, complex music without lots of glare and break-up, but now they'll be in a smaller carpeted room with a lower ceiling and driven by an exceptionally clean and quiet SET amp, so I'm hoping they're going to be a better match for this situation.

Thanks again for the offer.  I really think AC is a great place full of really decent folks, and this is just further proof of this.  Hopefully someday I'll be able to pay it forward to somebody else.

-- Jim