Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?

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PromitheusAudio

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    • Promitheusaudio
Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1800 on: 7 Jun 2007, 10:39 am »
any news on that C-core for the TVC, Nick you out there?  Take five spend a moment let us know whats happening now, hope you are well.

THanks for asking, actually we have been extremely busy and an exhausting week

Last week, thursday local authories drop by my small humble workshop and ask me to move out of the place. It seems we were nosiy. Yeah soldering makes alot of noise. Go figure. However they force me to move out within a week. So i had to drop everything and find a new place, moved and restart everything.
This week lots of moving, lighting, wiring.
THankfully everything is settleling down and this new place.

Once this is settle would report back on the C-cores

Perhaps one of our competitors might have complain at the local authority knowning that so many people have change their stuff :) just kidding anyway


PromitheusAudio

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Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1801 on: 7 Jun 2007, 10:54 am »
Ok, i removed it just for kicks tonite, and there is a definite loss of flesh and bass...but, rimshots, snare, voice gets an extra dose of clarity as there is less lower mids/higher midbass to compete for space.

What a tough balance....I definitily lost some bass.

Would you like more clarity with the active preamp. Simple treat the active preamp's isolation like how you would like to treat the tvc isolation they both gain from proper isolation. Don't place them on top of the tvc. It would kill both the tvc and the active preamp
Same with the power supply(don't ask me why) but i actually was able to tune my personel active preamp by playing around with the isolation
Adding cones helps alot in this area

Whitese / jack
I would need you address for the v-caps to be send over. THe V-caps would increase the clarity by a lot

Cheers
Nicholas

Whitese

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1802 on: 7 Jun 2007, 11:23 am »
I didnt even think about isolation.... :duh:

sometimes I wonder how I got thru grad school.. :scratch:

I just PM'd ya Nick.. :thumb:

gooberdude

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1803 on: 7 Jun 2007, 02:53 pm »
How does that song go?     "I fought the Law & the...Law won"     

Nick, you should've slipped the authorities a few freebie TVC's, they'd probably let you stay!

Whitese, in your pics it looks like a massive slab of granite that your gear sits on...maybe take the easy route with isolation and find a few spare LP album covers and set each component on 1 of them (and then back on the slab).

No clue why, but rigid & thick paper seems to isolate musically...moreso than stone, glass or MDF to my ears.


F-100

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1804 on: 7 Jun 2007, 03:50 pm »
Whitese,

FWIW, I was using a pair of granite slab under my mono amps for the past year. I thought the granite did a good job with the isolation until I replaced them with a 3" maple board couple weeks ago. Wow!! the maple boards are even better. The bass in my system improves dramatically and the image is more focus. I had no idea this tweak is so good.  :D

gooberdude

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1805 on: 7 Jun 2007, 04:01 pm »
Granite & Maple are on opposite ends of the hardness scale....   Save up & consider more maple boards F-100, the effects are cumulative & wild.

When the vibes inherent to the operation of gear go into granite (or other hard surfaces), they get bounced right back into the chassis & this muddies sound...assuming the feet of the gear are the standard hard rubber or even direct coupled.   this is not good even though most guys have gear set-up this way   :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono:

Couple each chassis to an air dried (occasionally Timbernation has air dried maple) maple board that is suspended (isoblocks or other) and you'll quickly learn about a tweaky part of this hobby that's quite rewarding.

4 of my components use this type of set-up but the effects of incorporating it into my power strip were the most fun.   still scratching my head.    :wink:


Whitese

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1806 on: 7 Jun 2007, 04:13 pm »
Whitese,

FWIW, I was using a pair of granite slab under my mono amps for the past year. I thought the granite did a good job with the isolation until I replaced them with a 3" maple board couple weeks ago. Wow!! the maple boards are even better. The bass in my system improves dramatically and the image is more focus. I had no idea this tweak is so good.  :D


hey, does maple under the marble help?  maybe i will lay the marble on the carpet and use the maple on top....

I already feel a diff with some isolation under the active...I used an XRCD cover under the PS and the nicks regular wooden pyramids under the active. the TVC has automotive bushings underneath. Or i am imagining things or simple isolation made a diff...(thats why I hate dealing with miscellanea like that...lol)


F-100

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1807 on: 7 Jun 2007, 04:21 pm »
Couple each chassis to an air dried (occasionally Timbernation has air dried maple) maple board that is suspended (isoblocks or other) and you'll quickly learn about a tweaky part of this hobby that's quite rewarding.

Do you put the isoblocks under the maple board or under the amp?? :scratch:

1000a

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1808 on: 7 Jun 2007, 04:40 pm »
could one not buy maple and other very nice wood from local hardwood type of lumber houses and skip the audio mark up?

F-100

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1809 on: 7 Jun 2007, 04:59 pm »
1000a,
  Check out this thread

I bought the 3" maple boards from Dawns-Kitchen-Korner. Good price and excellent service. Highly recommended.


gooberdude

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1810 on: 7 Jun 2007, 05:47 pm »
I think there is still a host of experimentation to be done with tonewood, but my 1st hand experiences have been enlightening & i like to share...  

1)  Try and set your gear on top of suspended Maple.  Other tonewoods can be substituted too, i'm a mapleshade dude though.  Coupling gear with proper footers is key too...more on that later since we are really discussing Isolation.

2)  Setting Isoblocks, or any other isolation material, directly under a chassis will simply isolate that chassis.  Any & all internal vibes will be stuck inside the chassis, which is the exact opposite of what i think is correct...exceptions to this rule exist though (YMMV sort of thing   :wink:) like with CD players.  Pure isolation has worked on CDP's for me.

3)  My Amp sits on top of a set of Ultimate Triplepoint footers, which sit on top of a 2" thick 15" x 18" timbernation maple platform, which sits right on the carpet.  For this arrangement, my carpet (and padding) is the isoblocks.  The other chassis mounts all involve Isoblocks and empty LP covers.

4)  Mapleshade's expensive 4" thick platform is damn near a musical instrument on its own.  The bass is insane.  I've owned their 2" finished platform and it did 70% of what the 4" does...i don't recomend their 2", go with Timbernation (perferrably air dried) if you can only swing $100 or so. You won't get the seductive 3-D craziness of MS maple, but you will get prodigious bass.   I have 4 tonewood platforms, 3 are Timbernation + the 4" Mapleshade rocketship which supports my TT and Imod.

5)  I wish these could be puchased locally, for sure.  Air dried is real hard to come by, however south of here is an Ahmish area & it seems like those communities have the patience/resources for air dried wood. There is no doubt in my mind that Kiln drying kills these boards.  3 of my boards are Kiln dried.   the type of Maple is important too, drying techniques aside.  Just ask any drum or guitar maker.

I see so many cool DIY TT decks made from multiple layers of Baltic or Russian Birch.  i've often wondered what a 6" or 8" slab of nicely glued layers would do in use as described above.


Whitese, i'd lay the Granite slab on the floor & find some butcher blocks around the house in the meantime just to play with - those would go right under your gear.  If you want to get crazy, a set of Isoblocks under the boards & above the granite would be good...but try the empty LP cover trick under the Isoblocks...and also inbetween the granite and the boards. IMO granite can be toxic to fine electronics but don't get me wrong, i like mass.    Your system looks very cool, those PA Audio co-axs are killer i bet.  Kinda funny to look at the back of those and compare to my hawthorne SI's.  the PA's look real serious   :o

we could always start a new thread in another circle to invite folk other than me to school you all!   i don't know much about this stuff, but do know i wouldn't be as gung ho about this hobby without them.   Nick Chua knows a thing or 2 about this also....

The jist of this type of mount is simple, but its weird as all get out:   The coupling footers, like Ultimate Triplepoints, suck internal vibrations out of chassis and jettison them into the suspended tonewood boards extremely efficiently.  These vibrations dissipate inside the boards because the boards are isolated & due to properties of the tonewood.  In effect, the boards vibrate right along with my gear and somehow this brings out inner detail, bass, imaging, clarity & an unmistakable sweetness that is simply not there when i lay the gear directly on the shelf with the factory feet (as the mfgr intended).  There is one review that i've read where they label the type of distortion that these mounts remove - or maybe they guess at what it might be...no idea when or where to find that though.  i'm not even sure Pierre Sprey would say it, since he hasn't to date.

Now, to do this right costs anywhere from $250 - $400 per component.  Add in the required interconnects & powercords...and this hobby gets quite expensive in a hurry.   I tried the DIY route for almost 2 years, but spent a lot of time & $ on rollerballs, neoprene & other crap that never gave me the performance i knew was possible.  so, i caved in...so did my wallet!  on 1 level these tweaks can help mid-fi gear sound pretty good.  What i wasn't expecting is that is allows nice gear to sound great.  all gear i've come across can benefit.

If anyone has a power strip that has spikes on it, i recomend trying a mount on that gear initially...its a wild, wild ride.  My BPT PPC strip came with tiny spikes attached, a $25 upgrade, and this enables the whole scheme to work.  In this spot, Mapelshade's 2" board might be the ticket and it comes with Isoblocks for $125.   Second would be your amp or source...

I've purchased 2 unfinished Timbernation 15" x 18" boards for about $90 each..finishing was fun.  My TVC sits on a TN 3" thick 12" x 15" tiger maple finished board, cost about $120.  My TT and Imod sit on the MS rocketship.  Including Isoblocks that'll set you back $250   :o

Timbernations air dried maple boards are about 10% more than the regular maple, but his supplies are limited.  i do recomend air dried though, there's something to it for this particular application.   Chris @ Timbernation is a great guy and guarantees his boards won't warp.  MS does not.    :cry:      Being a vinyl junkie with a new, light & rigid TT led me right into that expensive board...but i'll probably get buried with it in 50 years...or they can make my coffin's lid out of it.   My friends can beat on the lid with drumsticks as they pay their last respects.    :lol:

the only issue with some butcher block is that its end grain, not flat grain.  end grain is too hard if you intend to drain the vibrations.  For simple isolation though, it should be fine.




Say

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Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1811 on: 7 Jun 2007, 05:58 pm »
1000a,
  Check out this thread

I bought the 3" maple boards from Dawns-Kitchen-Korner. Good price and excellent service. Highly recommended.



Thanks for the link. Obsessive-Compulsive audio freaks like us just soak in this kind of enabling. What do I do to tame the beast?  By ordering one of the 24x18x3 shelves that's how.

http://stores.ebay.com/Dawns-Kitchen-Korner-and-More


Gooberdude, your post is pretty informative. I already have a two inch mapleshade shelf. I'll stick the new one I just ordered from the link above under the cdp. It's a 3 inch deal. Then move the 2 incher onto somewhere else.

Cones, points, silly things that go bump in the night all make a difference. I say, put every darn component on top of a supporting cast of misfits and listen till you get it right.

Cheers! :)


« Last Edit: 7 Jun 2007, 06:30 pm by Say »

1000a

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1812 on: 7 Jun 2007, 06:13 pm »
Quote
Obsessive-Compulsive audio freaks like us just soak in this kind of enabling

oh God don't tell me I gotta go to more meetings :evil:  this will leave far less time for me to stumble through Home Depot staring at all kinds of stuff scratching my head thinking, "I wonder if those under that with the other things from the mom and pop would bring out that last tid-bit I am missing.

Quote
I ended up going to Ikea with a friend last weekend and did the same damn thing.  essentially, rapping my knuckles on every table and stool i could find in order to listen to the tone.  i'm an audio mess sometimes!!   

good thing I got my Home Depot fix over with some time ago..that place will drive a man over the edge.   

Holy Triodes I had not even finished my post when this showed up. :D
« Last Edit: 7 Jun 2007, 06:32 pm by 1000a »

gooberdude

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1813 on: 7 Jun 2007, 06:24 pm »
I ended up going to Ikea with a friend last weekend and did the same damn thing.  essentially, rapping my knuckles on every table and stool i could find in order to listen to the tone.  i'm an audio mess sometimes!!   

good thing I got my Home Depot fix over with some time ago..that place will drive a man over the edge.   :lol:


Oscillate

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1814 on: 7 Jun 2007, 07:08 pm »
"Setting Isoblocks, or any other isolation material, directly under a chassis will simply isolate that chassis.  Any & all internal vibes will be stuck inside the chassis, which is the exact opposite of what i think is correct..."

   I am in agreement with this statement. I beleive audio equipment would need to be floated in a nonflamable, thick, viscous liquid to adequately disperse these undesirable vibrations. Although I doubt this is an original idea, a safe, practical implementation of fluid dampening audio components would be.

1000a

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1815 on: 7 Jun 2007, 07:57 pm »
i prefer isolating the components from outside sources of vibration and (also possibly seeking to treat the inner vibrations) as opposed to the supposed draining of vibration. many say this in fact is never really completely done as vibrations do in fact also travel back up the spikes what-have-you.   maybe less travel back up than down, don't know but a spike does not completely drain vibrations.

I have found my speakers image better and have a wholeness of sound on vibrapods, as many others have.  this could be visualised as music staying with the component remaining integrated and focused on its task despite its internal short comings as opposed to draining some unwanted vibrations generated from within the component.
Cause every attempt or change has an effect on the whole, I do not want to drain some  musicality from my speakers in an attempt to remove a few gremlins, the trade off is not always good for the whole of the parts.

just my opinion but it seems there are always compromises to every attempt, every move as in chess sets up other situations some more, some less problematic.  Every change has to be considered in the sum of the whole presentation (give a little here gain a little there) I might sacrifice easily some tiny area of concern if it better serves the whole.

What I am finding anyway is the sooner I accept what appear to be compromises and work with them as opposed to trying vainly to obliterate them, the bigger the leaps in the improvement of MS. 

A good example of this for me,  would be instead of me constantly trying to squeeze more and more out of my DIY IC (one area of my system that is already quite good) while I have made little attempt if any to address the room in which my stereo is used.

I have found my recent simple efforts in this department have lead to massive improvement IMS.  I now fully believe the room is 50% of the equation, the entire stereo wires and all = the other 50%.  Not that I shouldn't improve the stereo, it's just that a more balanced approach is yielding me far greater return on my time and effort.  My 50% neglect of serious consideration of the room well beyond thick carpets has been criminal.  As much as different types of isolation help, they do not hold a candle to the 75. (bagged insulation) bass traps in the front corners. not-a-no-way-not-a-chance.

its like some of us are trying to capture a lion with a trap 1/2 the size it needs to be and we are constantly polishing the ivory handels we have put on the draw string we have installed on such grossly undersized trap. :scratch:

Whitese

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1816 on: 7 Jun 2007, 08:14 pm »
Well, this is the setup now..for now I left the maple blocks under the marble.  Next they are coming on top.. I did bring in some wood left over from the school's shop..not sure what it is..its like deck building wood.   

The wood on top of the trannies drained too much bass bloom and it was better without it.



I am tempted to get some of that prehistoric dried wood from New Zeland sold on audiogon by someone....

gooberdude

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1817 on: 7 Jun 2007, 08:33 pm »
Now that is a cool wood platform!!!!!     How do you find this ebay seller??

Whitese

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1818 on: 7 Jun 2007, 08:38 pm »
Now that is a cool wood platform!!!!!     How do you find this ebay seller??

I had found it by coincidence....that one pictured is actually just an ad for the amps....he just happened to have them blocks..I will search, find and share...!

robert1325

Re: Promitheus TVC passive preamp anyone?
« Reply #1819 on: 7 Jun 2007, 09:25 pm »
I'd rather see a whole tree in New-Zealand :oops: