[Zheeeem]

My new RM30Ms arrived a week ago.  I am learning to enjoy them more and more every day.  I also recognize that breakin is a long-ish process as well as placement and room tweaking.  So I'm very patient.  But I thought I'd get some views.

The speakers are RM30Ms (I said that already) in what was originally piano black, but Big B kindly spray painted them Krylon red and patched up some dings with plaster.  Auricap and blackhole 5 upgrades.

Associated equipment is an AVA FetValve 350 EXR amp, T-7 preamp and Ultra DAC with an off-the rack CDP as transport.

The room is... small.  About 11x15.  The speakers are along one of the short walls because the wall was (acoustically) symmetrical.  There is a small-ish (36x32 inch) window in the upper center of that wall, and then nothing but blank wall down about 7 feet.  There is a heavy leather loveseat about 8 ft back from the wall - no other furniture except a small light stand and lamp, the stereo rack, and several CD racks along both long walls.  The closet (behind the loveseat) is stuffed with LPs.

The speakers are toed in at a 45 degree angle with the slit in the waveguide sitting 36 inches from the side walls and 36 inches from the wall behind them. They are each aimed about 2-3 ft in front of my normal listening position. There is a heavy oriental rug on the floor, and 2 smaller rugs hanging behind each speaker.  My rack is made out of solid stone, and sits directly between the speakers about a foot back of the waveguide slits.  One of the known problems is that the 10" woofer fires directly into the corner formed by the rack and wall, so my next adjustment will be to place the woofers on the outside.  Oh.  And the floor is hardwood over 12 inch joists on 16 inch centers.  This was a problem because there was no ceiling in the room below - utility room.  I spent the weekend packing the spaces with fiberglass batts, which has improved things.

These speakers obviously have great strengths.  They are fast.  The bass, though not exceedingly deep, is exceedingly clear, detailed and focused.  I am very impressed with the transition between the bass and the neos.  There is a sense of size and proportion that's just great - my previous few years of stuff has tended to be of a sub/satellite nature, which has not given me the overall impact that the RM30s provide.  The tonal qualities are just lovely.  There was, initially, some hardness and brightness in the high end and awkward transition between the neos and FST that have slowly improved.  I can, once again, sit and listen for hours.

There are two areas, though, on which I would welcome your thoughts:

1.  The imaging is, well, not great.  There is a bit of congestion right there between the speakers, and it is a challenge to locate instruments in space.

2.  A fair bit of the midrange sounds as if it's coming right out of the speakers (i.e., they don't disappear very well).

My initial thinking is that these issues - the first, at least - have more to do with the room than the speakers.  The latter I would anticipate improving as the drivers break in a bit more.  And adjusting the XOs - which I don't plan on doing for a while yet - should help as well.  BTW - when I put the rugs on the wall, it did improve the imaging somewhat.  And I reckon putting the woofers on the outside would widen the soundstage, which may well relieve some of the perceived congestion.  But that would raise further room treatment issues.

Any thoughts?

(And yes, the Krylon red is a GREAT look, and not that much extra!!!)

[Brian Cheney]

Most audiophiles understand the importance of Spousal Acceptance, which in this case was particularly challenging.  Our mission, which I dared to accept, was to match wifely taste in walls, rugs, and china pattern all curiously but artfully executed in red Krylon under spackle.  For a change of pace, the user specified a "hammered" finish which we applied to the cabinets with 20 lb sledges.  All in all, a most successful customizing which would do the folks at Orange County Choppers proud.

Hanging rugs is not a good idea.  Rugs are too thin to affect all but the highest frequencies, making the sound lose sparkle  We suggest damping sheets at least 2" thick behind and beside the speakers.  These will also bring up the bass.  In such a small room woofers should point out.  Toe in cabinets towards the listening position and adjust distance to side and back walls for best imaging. 

Piece of cake.

[dubravko]

1.  The imaging is, well, not great.  There is a bit of congestion right there between the speakers, and it is a challenge to locate instruments in space.

2.  A fair bit of the midrange sounds as if it's coming right out of the speakers (i.e., they don't disappear very well).

Hi Zheem,
in my room (and some other rooms I tried) both of these issues are solved when speakers are spaced wider than what looks "wide enough" from listening seat. When measured, distance between speakers is about the same as distance from a speaker to the listener. There is an area when it seems that picture between speakers will divide, but going slightly wider filled the space wonderfully and speakers disappeared at the same time. And it even works (at least with non-CDWG 30s or 40s) while speakers are not yet tonally perfectly adjusted.

[John Casler]

If my mental picture is right, from your description, you need serious damping between the speakers.

Sounds like there is simply a "wall" there to have frequencies bounce off of.

Is the "stone" rack between the speaker too?

If so, you have a lot of reflections between the speakers, that may "fuzz up" the soundstage and imaging.

Is it possible to send a picture or drawing?

With the RM30, you should have "pin point" imaging, if it is in the signal and recording.

[Zheeeem]

1.  Tried Big B's recommendation of pointing the woofers outward.  It made an immediate difference.  Good difference, too.  Much better imaging.  Much, as in waaaaaaaay much.  There is still some attention drawn to the speakers themselves, but greatly reduced.  I'm sitting here listening and I'm surprised at the difference.

2.  Still a bit of hotness, so I'll probably leave the rugs on the wall till I can order some foam.  Or then again, maybe not.

3.  John, For 9 years I lived in France in a lovely house where the window and door frames were made from large blocks of rock.  Turned out that the rockcutter lived about 5 km away.  I had some monitor speakers at the time and decided to see if he'd cut me some blocks of stone for stands.  And he did.  23 inches tall and the same footprint as my monitors.  Liked it so much I had him cut me the right bits for a 3-tier rack, 36 inches wide and about a foot deep.  When we moved back here to the states, we shipped the rock back (after all, these are genuine french audiophile-grade rocks).  My wife ended up with a 2-tier rack for the HT, and I got creative for my rig - basically I have one of the 36 inch slabs on top of the 2 old monitor stands, then I used a pair of blocks to put my amp in the middle, under the 36 inch slab.  Tubes, so there's ample breathing room.  So it is, in effect, a block that's 25 inches high, 12 inches deep and 36 inches wide centered between my speakers and slightly more than a foot behind the speaker plane.  Immediately above is the window (36x32).  I know this is not ideal.  But there really is nowhere else they will fit in the room.  My wife won the coin toss for who got which "playroom".  Mine is 11x14.  Hers is 17x23.  She has a 42 inch plasma TV and a pair of magnepan tympani 1(U)s with a rel sub.  (The short answer is, no I can't send a picture.)

Dubravko, I'll try spacing out the placement as I continue to play around.  Thanks.

Oh, B?  A chunk of plaster fell off.  Will that affect the sound?

[dubravko]

2.  Still a bit of hotness

Try to leave midrange control at 12 o'clock, but attenuate treble to 9.15 or 9.30. Maybe it would sound dull for a first listen, but after some time this impression will fade (only, I tried these values with non-CDWG models). PR adjusting also affects "hotness". Speakers with well adjusted PRs won't sound hot even if mid/treble are adjusted brighter. Reversely, speakers with very much attenuated mids and treble can still sound fatiguing if speakers are not positioned well and PRs adjusted properly. You'll need some time to put all this together.

[warnerwh]

If you can get away with foam then a better more WAF acceptable idea may be to make something with rigid fiberglass. With wood frames and double thick rigid fiberglass covered in any material you wish you can improve your sound quite alot. I've had a number of people ask me "where's the sound coming from". The look in their eyes tells me they're sincere as they've not been audiophiles and had never heard anything like it, even with two very large speakers right in front of them.

There's a substantial amount you can do to adjust your speakers to your room built in from the factory. This needs to be taken slowly however or you'll get yourself into trouble.  A click here or there with the pots is all I'd try at first.  Make sure you're aware of what you did.

I don't know what tubes you're running in Frank's amp but I find the Mullard CV4024 which is the 12at7wa works best with my RM 40's. According to Upscale Audio it's the most robust, reliable and quiet 12at7 Kevin sells. You can get them on Ebay for about 35 bucks a matched pair from Bnb tubes. This tube changing is worth the effort. As you know now Vmps speakers are extremely transparent.  I'm not saying you'll like them better but I do.

Be patient as these speakers are worthy of taking your time to set up properly. Room acoustics of course is huge. Speaker/listener placement very important. Small changes can yield a significant improvement.  Best wishes with your new toys.

[Tim S]

The custom job on them sounds interesting. Any pictures of them?

Tim

[woodsyi]

2.  Still a bit of hotness, so I'll probably leave the rugs on the wall till I can order some foam.  Or then again, maybe not.

Zheeem,

With CDWG I have my midpot all the way open with my "hotpot" turned down to 2 O'clock.  Be that as it may, what you are experiencing may not have anything to do with the RM30s.  Until I put up a rear wall diffuser (already had absorbers on side, top and front wall) I didn't realize how cluttered my sound was.  My tendency was to turn the tweeter pot up to hear more details which rendered it "hot."  With your room size, you have to put up acoustic treatment to address not only the low frequency modes but also mid/high standing waves.  I just love the details with lively re-verb that I get now.    I am now a big believer in diffusers.

[matix]

If my mental picture is right, from your description, you need serious damping between the speakers.

Sounds like there is simply a "wall" there to have frequencies bounce off of.

Is the "stone" rack between the speaker too?

If so, you have a lot of reflections between the speakers, that may "fuzz up" the soundstage and imaging.

 

Hi John

I too suffer the same imaging problems.  I have a 92" Stewart screen in between the RM30MS.  I, too,  will like the speakers to disappear like the Audio Physic Virgo since the RM30M has the same slender design. I have a 2" gap between the wall and the screen materal (Studiotek 130).  Will putting any sound treatment inside this gap help?  I am not sure if the screen material is already reflecting all the sound and make any treatment behind it redundant.

[warnerwh]

Matix: How much room treatment do you now have? If you could supply us with pics it will make it easy to help you.

Your speakers should be imaging incredibly well. I'm assuming an excellent or at least good acoustical environment. If they're not then it is your room. This is a common problem. Many years went by until I learned how important the room acoustics were. Thank the internet for easy access to knowledge.

In case you don't know the average room has peaks and dips of plus or minus 15db! Imagine having a kid adjust a graphic equalizer randomly for you and that is what your room does. You have no control where these peaks and dips are. However the dimensions of your room play a huge role in the bass region. This region alone can make or break your system, at minimum give you soft bass and muddy up the midrange.

With room treatment, both wall and bass traps the room acoustics will be largely improved. Bass ringing will be there without the use of bass traps.  First reflection points must be treated for the best imaging etc etc. It's really easy to improve your room acoustics and the cost/performance ratio is excellent.

[zybar]

Hi John

I too suffer the same imaging problems.  I have a 92" Stewart screen in between the RM30MS.  I, too,  will like the speakers to disappear like the Audio Physic Virgo since the RM30M has the same slender design. I have a 2" gap between the wall and the screen materal (Studiotek 130).  Will putting any sound treatment inside this gap help?  I am not sure if the screen material is already reflecting all the sound and make any treatment behind it redundant.

I put foam behind my 110" Firehawk screen and can't say it made any noticeable difference.

Maybe install curtains that you can close in front the screen when you want to listen to music?

This not only will improve the sound, but curtains can make your HT look better as well.

George

[warnerwh]

Great idea for the curtains George! This could look great. I will have to tell my friends with integrated systems and monster screens. The aestetics would be similar to an actual theater. With heavy duty curtains they'd also work well for acoustic treatment.

[Mathew_M]

However the dimensions of your room play a huge role in the bass region. This region alone can make or break your system, at minimum give you soft bass and muddy up the midrange.

Very true.  My 626r's had amazingly tight and dimensional bass when I had them placed in a spare bedroom in my parent's house.  I had my speakers positioned in the cove area of some heavily curtained bay windows.  The room measured about 12x14 and was fairly quiet.  Anyway it's the best I've heard my speakers and I unfortunately haven't been able to recreate it in my new house. 

[warnerwh]

Actually you can recreate it in your new house Matthew. Assuming room treatments are viable solution it is very possible. Another item that can help alot in conjunction with or by itself if room treatments are out is a Behringer DEQ 2496 digital equalizer.

You can have a huge effect with the Behringer equalizer. For 300 dollars I think it's the best tweak in high end audio. With the Behringer and some bass traps you're most of the way home. I've seen them sell for 200 on Ebay.

I have a friend with RM 30's who built himself a new house. His new listening room was horrible and he was very disappointed with the sound of his RM 30's especially since he knew how they could sound. He bought four large bass traps and the Behringer unit and is happy now. Being as he's building another house he doesn't want to go overboard with built in treatments like he will in the house he plans on living in for a long period.

The most important things to consider are in no particular order:

1. Room dimension derived peaks and dips. Treatments help alot and the Behringer, Tact, DEQX stuff can take it to another level on top of the room treatments.

2. Bass ringing. There's unfortunately no fix other than a super big room or bass traps. These can be made yourself relatively inexpensively. For 50 bucks you can make a large bass traps using three rolls of fiberglass, two pieces of wood for end caps and some material to cover it with.

3. Imaging. The most important thing to remember is that first reflections can blur your image. It's not set in stone but a sound reflection arriving 10 to 15 milleseconds later will blur the sound. Treating these first reflections is very important. Apparently your brain will put them with the first sound arrivals.

Windows should be covered with heavy drapes.  Wood floors should at minimum have a thick rug on them. No coffee table in front of you. I use a very short footstool with a pillow top for my feet.
There's alot of ways to get your room into the "good acoustics" arena. Some can look great even wife pleasing. Others, like my own, aren't so aestetically pleasing to the eye. That's what dedicated man rooms are for

For the money invested the performance improvement treating the room is a bargain. If you have expensive wire, sell it, then buy room treatments. The room treatment is far more of an improvement dollar for dollar. It literally took me a few days to absorb the sound quality of my new room even though the room in my other house had some treatment and one bass trap. Going from that to a full LEDE with four bass traps had been an incredible experience.

The improvement had been so dramatic that my stereo now sounded nothing like it had before and I had a full wall of acoustic foam behind my system before with a single bass trap. To be honest I wasn't sure what to think I was so stunned when I first fired her up. Total cost: Maybe 800 for all four bass traps and alot of acoustic wedge foam.  It's probably closer to 600 but it's been a while and I never did add it up. The idea had been to do the best I knew how to.

Any system, even a 1000 dollar system, will benefit greatly from good room acoustics. I'd consider that from the outset of any system design period. If the Behringer is something you don't like due to it's being a pro piece of gear I see the lower end Tact models selling for around a grand these days. This will operate as your preamp also. In any event the most important part of your system is your room. Your system isn't operating at it's full potential without the treatment and could easily be operating well below what it's capable of. Changing electronics will help little until the acoustics are in order.

[John Casler]

If my mental picture is right, from your description, you need serious damping between the speakers.

Sounds like there is simply a "wall" there to have frequencies bounce off of.

Is the "stone" rack between the speaker too?

If so, you have a lot of reflections between the speakers, that may "fuzz up" the soundstage and imaging.

 

Hi John

I too suffer the same imaging problems.  I have a 92" Stewart screen in between the RM30MS.  I, too,  will like the speakers to disappear like the Audio Physic Virgo since the RM30M has the same slender design. I have a 2" gap between the wall and the screen materal (Studiotek 130).  Will putting any sound treatment inside this gap help?  I am not sure if the screen material is already reflecting all the sound and make any treatment behind it redundant.

Hi Matix,

Sorry I'm late to the party.  All the suggestions above are good ones.

The RM30 is one of the most incredible speakers in the imaging department, that I cannot think of a better one except the RM/x.

But, as the others (and you) have alluded to, it can only work it's magic if the room and contents don't destroy these qualities.

Imaging is a simple science.  You simply take two audio signals, match their phase and volume, and equally mix them at your ears.

That said, any and every sonic reflection or sound from anyplace other than the speaker itself will begin to degrade that image quality.

In a HT application, I tend to like the "heavy" velvet/velor drapes that can be set on a ceiling track.

I personally like that ceiling track to be in a "semicircle" so that when closed, they encircle a larger space between the speakers.

Make sure you are exactly equidistant between the two speakers, and that the speakers are "in phase".  You may even try reversing the leads on one speaker (not both) and listen to check phasing.

Sitting closer (nearfeild) is also advisable, but many times difficult for FP HT.

The "first reflections" on side walls, floor and ceiling are the next gremlins to takle.

Then for overall and continued improvements follow Warner's and others advice.

He did mention something which occasionally gets neglected and that is do not have a coffee table or anything reflective between you and the speakers.

Good luck and let us know how it goes

[John Casler]

And one aditional thought.

Make sure the recording you are listening to "supports" imaging, and disappearing.

Some have very strong indivdual speaker steering and then the sound will seem to come from "that" speaker, because it does.

Get a cut of HEART doing "Crazy on You".

The opening acoustic guitar should be slightly inside the right speaker.

The second guitar should be slightly inside the left speaker,

And Nancy Wilson should be singing away front and center.

Listen with eyes closed so you are not "drawn" by visual image.

This is like when your center speaker is below the screen, yet the voice seems to come from the screen, because the visual tricks your brain into hearing it there.

[Mathew_M]

Thanks Warner,

What is the best way to deal with vaulted ceilings?  I currently have my system set up in my un-finished basement.  Wall treatments consist of carboard boxes.  I have a thin area rug but it's only for the seating position and the speakers are sitting on milk crates on a concrete floor.  Regarding the milk crates, my speakers sound better sitting on them than the cheap stands that I had before and they are the perfect height.  I don't plan on investing in $700 stands as I'd rather put that towards a speaker upgrade if anything.  Anyway what's great about the basement is that I can have the speakers pulled out a good 3-5' from the walls and there is much more room for them to 'play' vs. the upstairs.  So in that regard with the right recording like say The Buena Vista Social Club I can get awesome soundstaging.  However I think now I'm hearing the weakness of the 626 and that's that they just aren't big enough to give me that full spectrum of sound (in a big room) that I've heard from bigger speakers, specifically a pair of Magnapan 3A's (I believe) which are huge speakers in their own right.

EDIT:  I just want to clarify that the vaulted ceilings are upstairs and not in the basement...like no duh but 

[Housteau]

What is the best way to deal with vaulted ceilings?

Enjoy them .  They have a certain positive visual presence as well as offering nonparallel surfaces to your floor.  However, the peak can possibly create a focus issue in some circumstances, so I have been told and also believe I have experienced in my own room.  Here is my present solution.  I made some 4" thick base panels to absorb at high frequencies as well.

[warnerwh]

From your description it seems your room may be very reflective. Cardboard won't help. You need acoustic foam or rigid fiberglass. If you have a picture you can post it would help.

The most important thing is to get some sound absorption material on the walls. The thicker the better. With acoustic foam you need to use 3" thick minimum.

The 626's are capable of playing a huge soundstage for their size. It has amazed me what two of those will do. Before you spend money on anything you really want to get your room treated. This will be an excellent investment as the improvement in sound quality and soundstage can be very large.

Let us see what you're working with. It would help to know the dimensions of your room also. If you have the same or a multiple of any dimension this can cause serious problems.

In my room which I built in what was an unfinished basement I have a 12' x 17' room. I have acoustic foam,3" and 4", all the way across the wall behind my system plus the ceiling and both sidewalls are covered 5' out. Over the concrete I have a thick pad and carpeting. In each corner is a large bass trap which also act as absobers for mid and higher frequencies. The sound quality is incredibly good Any speaker I'm likely to put in there will also sound very very good, even a cheap pair of Polk speakers that cost 300 a pair we use for the rears of our HT system sound surprisingly good in there.

Like John said above all those reflections are degrading the sound, soundstage etc.  I know what the 626R's are capable of and it's not as big of a gap between them and the RM 40's I use as I'd have thought. They can throw a very nice image that is much larger than I'd anticipated. Not as large as the RM 40's but not nearly so far behind as you would think considering the size difference. It's certainly well over half the size of the image the RM 40's have and the bigger speaker is very big. If you want you can call me in the evening before 10 PST. My phone number is on the VMPS site.