[Loftprojection]

OK, I'm finally reaching the veneer step and I'm not sure how to proceed with holes for the flush mount tweaters on the AV series.  The "lip" is not deep enough for me to use a flush trim router bit (at least the one I have) and my holes are already done in the MDF.  Do you guys have a trick for that one?  I hope you're not going to tell me I should have installed the veneer before making the holes!    Right now the only "good" idea I have is to make a round hole in the veneer with a knife around a tweater before pressing the veneer on the MDF but this means extra precision so that the veneer is placed precisely above the hole after. 

Thanks for your help.

[pecker]

You should have installed the veneer before making the holes. Ha!

But you might be able to do it with the bit labelled "E" in this link:
http://eagleamerica.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_124-0412

[cplnclag]

Hey
I did the same thing and hit the same wall that you have arrived at. I bought a bit that looks like D in the picture, but that length at the end exceeded the depth of the countersink--I was bummed.

I ended up rough cutting the opening with an xacto knife and then I created a type of flush trim bit using a dremmel--real easy.

My dremel came with little sanding drums that are held onto the shaft with a screw. I was able to put 2 small washers that were the exact diameter of the sanding drum onto the end of the shaft. The little screw head and the 2 washers gave me the exact depth I needed and the sanding drum cut the thin veneer like butter. It was just like a flush trim bit, but more precise due to the small size of the dremel.

I hope that description helps--it would take a couple of days to get a picture up if you need it.

Carlos

[Blaine_M]

That's a good idea.  I used the baffles Danny has when I made mine, so they were pre-cut and the holes were already there.  I put the veneer on and then I actually got a good utility knife and very carefully and slowly cut out the tweeter hole.  I used my router with a flush cutting bit to cut out the other holes.  Also check with your local woodworking stores, they may have some tools that could help.  I wish I would have checked with my local 'woodsmith' store first, but I didn't. 

[Loftprojection]

Darn, so I screwed up again!    I'll try to find the bit E and see if it does the job.  If not, the Dremel trick sound feasable!  

I think when I'm finished I'll write a list of steps with do's/don'ts, might be helpful to other amateurs like me who decide to build speakers for the first time!  

Thanks guys.  If others have bright ideas, don't hesitate!  

[samplesj]

After struggling with sandpaper and free handing router trying to get the countersink just right on the first pair of tweeters, I tried something different for all the rest. 

I just used my circle jig to make circular groove the diameter of the countersunk area and only that deep (not all the way through).  Then I just used the jig to cut the smaller drive hole AFTERWARD.  On a couple I didn't quite get deep enough so I had to hit it with some sandpaper to get it just right, but overall it was much easier for me that way.  My wife's pair of tweeter holes I intentionally cut shallow so I could make it a perfect fit.

YMMV, but it was a useful trick for me.

[JoshK]

You should have installed the veneer before making the holes. Ha!

One question I have about cutting holes after veneering (i've seen it done and suggested to do it both ways) is how do you prevent scratching the veneer with the router?  Its inevitable that you will get dust and possibly chips between the router surface and the baffle face as you are cutting.

[JoshK]

After struggling with sandpaper and free handing router trying to get the countersink just right on the first pair of tweeters, I tried something different for all the rest. 

I just used my circle jig to make circular groove the diameter of the countersunk area and only that deep (not all the way through).  Then I just used the jig to cut the smaller drive hole AFTERWARD.  On a couple I didn't quite get deep enough so I had to hit it with some sandpaper to get it just right, but overall it was much easier for me that way.  My wife's pair of tweeter holes I intentionally cut shallow so I could make it a perfect fit.

YMMV, but it was a useful trick for me.

There is a tutorial on driver routing on htguide's MDP forum.  It basically takes this approach.  Since this forum is made up of some serious veterans of the speaker building community, I take it that this proves to be the easiest method. 

[Blaine_M]

Josh,

I had very few problems with the router chipping the veneer.  It did scuff a little where the router had been, but a light sanding removed that, I used a very fine grit sandpaper.  Get a good flush trim bit and go slow and you should be fine.  I had to clean the bit every so often because the contact cement would gunk up on the little blades.
There are also veneer cutting knifes you can get that are made for cutting veneer edges.  The trick with them is they do not work for circles.  I think some of you guys are too concerned about this part, I veneered right over the holes, then used that flush trim router bit to cut everything.  The only snag I ran into was the countersunk hole for the tweeter which I ended up doing very carefully by hand with a new blade in a utility knife. 

[Danny Richie]

You're okay. I always pre-cut the holes then veneer over them.

You can carefully cut out the tweeter hole with a exact-o knife just as Blaine said. It works fine.

I have a finishing bit like the one in the picture with letter "D". It works great.

[pecker]

You should have installed the veneer before making the holes. Ha!

One question I have about cutting holes after veneering (i've seen it done and suggested to do it both ways) is how do you prevent scratching the veneer with the router?  Its inevitable that you will get dust and possibly chips between the router surface and the baffle face as you are cutting.

There is usually some minimal sanding required, but that's what you bought all those power tools for.
If using paper backed veneer you need to be more careful as the wood is only about .01" thick, whereas raw veneers are usually about .03"

I think a protruding screw head or some other foriegn object on the bottom of the router would cause more serious scratching than sawdust could.

[Hank]

It'll work.  I've cut lots of driver holes first, then veneered over them and then trimmed the veneer with sharp Xacto knives and razor blades.  I did once veneer before cutting driver holes - if you do that, make sure your router bit is very sharp, and to clean the contact cement off your bit occasionally.

[Midnite Mick]

Also attempting my first build and am currently going through the same thing.  I veneered first, then did the outside diameter countersink to the necessary depth, and then cut the holes (did this with router and circle jig)  However, I did end up with scratches on the surface that are unacceptable to me.  Here is the really crappy part.  I used a Formica material that I liked the looks of making it unrepairable.  So it is back to the drawing board.  Atleast the inside baffle is done and I only have to do a single .75 inch MDF this time.

I am currently looking at possibly cutting the baffle the same way but without vaneer.  Then applying a coat of primer, and 2 coats of Varathane colour.  Anybody, have any experience with Varathane colour?

Mike

[Loftprojection]

Hey thanks guys.  I got myself an xacto knife and did one tweater.  Works out fine.  So I'm back in business!    I'm getting there, soon I should be listening to this AV kit, after almost a year now!  hahaha

[Blaine_M]

Mick,

The other thing you can try is putting some masking tape over the surface so it doesn't get scratched.  That's the nice part about veneer, you can generally lightly sand out anything that the router might scuff up. 

[Bill A]

One trick I've used, which I got from another board, is to use self-sticking shelf lining paper to cover your project.  It does a good job of keeping the bottom of the router from scratching the veneer.  Just route through the paper then peel it off when your done.

As a side note, the last pair of boxes I built I covered in veneer and lightly sanded before I cut the holes.  The advantage I see to doing it this way is the ability to sand the boxes without oversanding around the holes and the small space between the drivers.  However, now that I've done it both ways, I think either is fine.

Bill A.

[Midnite Mick]

I didn't even think of covering the surface first .  Thanks, great idea.  Can't really sand it when using formica though.

I guess its a learning process and one should expect to make some mistakes along the way.

Thanks,
Mike

[pipster]

Then applying a coat of primer, and 2 coats of Varathane colour.  Anybody, have any experience with Varathane colour?

Mike

I haven't had experience with the Varathane brand as I usually use the competitor MinWax.  Based on your question, it appears you are asking about using Varathane's "One Step Stain and Polyurethane".  I have used both the separately applied stain and polyurethane and the combined stain/poly one step.  By far, the best finish is when you apply them separately.  You can work the stain into the wood, enhancing grain and controling color depth, then apply two coats of the clear poly.  For furniture, I tend to prefer the satin finsh, and the combined product is usually only available in gloss or semi-gloss.  I also prefer oil based stains over water/latex as the finish seems much richer...but cleanup is harder.

If your reference to "two coats" was to the stain only, yes, I typically do two coats of the stain, then varnish the next day.  The second coat is light and brief to even out the color.  While many ways to apply stain, I prefer brushing on with the cheapest brush I can find, then wipe with old pair cotton socks/underwear with holes in it that you have been meaning to throw out. 

With the combined, one step product, the stain pigments don't penetrate the wood as the poly seems to act as a barrier.  It is almost as if it is a lightly tinted clear paint with the look of stain as it stays on top of the wood rather than soaking in.  It does have the advantage on lightly hiding imperfection.

I recently completed new oak steps (previously carpet) and the existing handrail (couldn't find new suitable 2x4 lumber).  The steps I did with individual applications - and look great! I could tell from the finish that the handrail was originally one step stained which stripped well, but was very uneven with dark patches - even with heavy sanding.  Even though I had sufficient stain left over from the steps, I did a one-step refinish on the hand rail.  You can definately tell the difference.  The steps are jaw dropping, while the handrail simply looks OK.  If I ever find the new lumber, will replace it and do it right.

[Midnite Mick]

It is actually not a stain.  The product is called Varathane Colours In Plastic, Plastic Enamel,  Furniture, Kitchens & Bath, Marine & Outdoor.  I looked on their website and I cannot even find it on there so maybe it is a new product.  The counter guy at the Hardware store said that he has used it to touch up his guitar.  He said that it would be fairly close to a piano black.  Just wondering if anybody else has tried the product and what their thoughts are.

Thanks,
Mike