[Jazz and Baroque]

Hi,

If we are reopening this wish list, I would like:

a small sub - under 40 lbs

with one 8" driver (or smaller) with usable output down to 25 Hz

horizontal cross-section no bigger than 13 x 13, (vertical size is open) 

with a power amp that is not attached to the sub. 

Of course, fast, musical, low-distortion.

Merry Christmas, etc.
Mike

[Mike Dzurko]

I realize this thread is real old, but I was about to ask the same question, and the discussion was so good I figured some new people might want to read it.

Anyway, I was always like some others in that I was never a fan of subs in a 2-channel setup, both in practice and in principle (I could never get subs to blend in what I felt was a seamless manner, and I like to keep things simple. I try to at least.). But, I'm coming around on the idea...not ruling it out for the future.

Still, I'd be more inclined to invest the same/slightly more money (equiv. to pair of Sapphire XL's, two Force subs, stands, etc.) into a full-range, floorstanding, single-unit setup if I had the choice. 2-way, 2.5, 3-way, no sticking points there. I've come to like transmission-line designs, basically...anything that can hit into at least the very low 30's (flat) without being a total bear to drive. Passive radiators, whatever works. Scan-Speak makes some pretty hefty woofers, from what I can gather. Just tossin' my 2 cents around.

Thanks for relighting this thread AND your feedback. In conversations and emails, lot of folks have told me very similar desires. Even though monitors and subs have some real advantages, a pair of towers is very appealing to many.  

Technically, Hoffman's Iron Law means it will be very tough to go below say, 35-37Hz -3db in a reasonable size and  sensitivity. If you run the #s (we have) on even the most expensive ScanSpeaks you'll see what I mean.  Still, solid to 35Hz or so is going to be pretty potent for sure.    

[edmiston]

Hi Mike,

What I would love to see ACI make is a subwoofer designed to act as a stand for your sapphires.  Then in no more space than the monitors on stands, you could have a system without dynamic compromise.  A bit like Watt/Puppies, etc, but less ridiculous!

Mark

[Toka]

Technically, Hoffman's Iron Law means it will be very tough to go below say, 35-37Hz -3db in a reasonable size and  sensitivity. If you run the #s (we have) on even the most expensive ScanSpeaks you'll see what I mean.  Still, solid to 35Hz or so is going to be pretty potent for sure.   

Thanks Mike! I can't pretend to have run the numbers (or have the wherewithal to do so), but I can only imagine the problems that would be faced. Heck, the relative paucity of models in the market that meet such specs is proof positive.

Perhaps one of my biggest hangups with the monitor/sub combo is the common use of LP filters...I know it won't damage anything, but on some raw philosophical level it just irks me. Irrational to be sure, but there all the same. 

[jimmy b]

What we want to have is a bass module for the Saphire.
A triple column of 7" or 8" drivers to play lows and midbass then an optional 10" sub base.
A triple cheese burger if you must . Picture it, a Saphire on top of a mid bass stack on top of a Force sub as a solid base.
The customer could buy as much speaker as they wanted. And when they cheaped out in the first purchase they would be back for more speaker later, a marketing coup. They could be moved too since they wouldn't weigh 150 lbs each.

 I need it now

[Mike Dzurko]

In the spirit of wishlist brainstorming in subs, I'll throw out another idea:  a Force- or Titan -sized sub with dual 10" or 12" drivers on opposite sides of the cabinet. Hi-Fi + Mag. last issue had a sub review and found that this design in a new Eclipse TD 725 SW (twin 10" drivers) had better musicality and was also much easier to integrate with the L &R mains, with less fussy placement issues, compared with the REL and Velodyne DD12. The reviewer also found that one Eclipse sub would suffice in a moderate sized room whereas two subs with a single driver (REL and Velo) were needed for more convincing , less directional bass. I have owned a lowly Cambridge Soundworks Newton P500, with dual 8 in. opposing drivers (500 watt class D Bash amp in a tiny one-ft. cube package), which still surprises me with its ability to blend easily with my bookshelf speakers with room-filling bass. I wonder if having opposing drivers loads the room more evenly, and may somehow reduce the pressure inside the cabinet. Isobaric woofer designs (one driver behind another in series) is another high-end sub design to reduce cabinet pressure that might be explored.

I'd love to have just one sub cabinet in a smaller room, with the benefits of twin drivers to load the room more evenly. It would be ideal to have opposing 10" or 12" drivers in a small cabinet ( Force size) for WAF purposes. Just a thought...

Rob

Rob:

Brainstorming is good I appreciate your input. You've given me the opportunity to share some of the things we've learned building subs over the years.  Random replies:
--When I looked up the Eclipse sub I noticed a few things.  First, it is nearly as large as a Titan, I suspected it would need to be to have enough air volume for a pair of 10s.  At close to $5K it is a bit pricey.  And it looks like they spec it at 20Hz -10db vs. our 20Hz -3db
--Having opposing drivers does make sense from the standpoint of vibration cancelling . . . but all the experiments we’ve done over the years haven’t yielded any significant improvement from spacing the drivers just a bit apart.  Over the frequency range of 20-80Hz we’ll dealing with wavelengths of 56 to 14 FEET so that’s why spacing a foot or two apart doesn’t change the room load a whole lot, maybe a little if for example one woofer is firing into the corner and the other one is firing out.
--Interesting you mention Isobaric (compound) loading. We used it for years and ironically, the late 80s catalog that Wayne was just kind enough to post has some of our compound models in it. Including the Pulse sub which was dual 10s compound loaded. The real virtue of compound loading is that it cuts box size in ½. But of course you need that extra chamber and extra woofer to accomplish this, kinda pricey. The current Force XL is considerably smaller than the Pulse was, and with a single 10” goes lower, has less distortion, plays louder, and sounds better. Still, if you need a passive solution to lowering box volume, compound is a good way to do it.

Bottom line, if you want a tiny sub that meets your criteria, I hope you'll listen to a Force XL 

[Robert57]

Mike, thanks for your helpful repy to my ignorant speculations. I am a big fan of the monitor/ sub concept, which you explain so well, particularly for smaller rooms where bass needs more fine tuning and control. The Force XL by all accounts is a superb, high-value performer as is, and certainly is at the top of my list for a new sub. btw, it is very impressive to see an audio manufacturer be so open to product suggestions, and even loose brainstorming. This thread has been very informative!

Rob

[Mike Dzurko]

Hi,

If we are reopening this wish list, I would like:

a small sub - under 40 lbs

with one 8" driver (or smaller) with usable output down to 25 Hz

horizontal cross-section no bigger than 13 x 13, (vertical size is open) 

with a power amp that is not attached to the sub. 

Of course, fast, musical, low-distortion.

Merry Christmas, etc.
Mike

Hey Mike,

Any reason it must be max of 13" on a side? That's only 3/4" less than the Force XL.  And reasoning for the second amp? Just trying to get a feel here, thanks!

[Ryan45872]

What we want to have is a bass module for the Saphire.
A triple column of 7" or 8" drivers to play lows and midbass then an optional 10" sub base.
A triple cheese burger if you must . Picture it, a Saphire on top of a mid bass stack on top of a Force sub as a solid base.
The customer could buy as much speaker as they wanted. And when they cheaped out in the first purchase they would be back for more speaker later, a marketing coup. They could be moved too since they wouldn't weigh 150 lbs each.

 I need it now

I don't think that would work. The Force xl is 15"h and the Sapphire XL 12"h. You would have only 10-12"s of play to put the Sapphire at the ideal height. That is according to the Sapphire stands being 25 1/2"-26 1/2h. Maybe a 8" OR 10" midbass, or just bring back LFM
Just my .02

Ryan

[Jazz and Baroque]

Hey Mike,

Any reason it must be max of 13" on a side? That's only 3/4" less than the Force XL.  And reasoning for the second amp? Just trying to get a feel here, thanks!

I am sort of tight on floor space.  But, I agree, 3/4" is not a big compromise. 

On the amp issue...   I go to great lengths to isolate different "stages" of the music path.  The source is isolated from the pre, the pre is isolated from the power amp, and I would not put my power amp on top of the speaker cabinet. 

So why is it good to attach the sub-amp to the sub cabinet??? 

Also, it will lower the weight of the sub, so that I can more easily move it around the room. 

Mike

[Mike Dzurko]

Hi Mike,

What I would love to see ACI make is a subwoofer designed to act as a stand for your sapphires.  Then in no more space than the monitors on stands, you could have a system without dynamic compromise.  A bit like Watt/Puppies, etc, but less ridiculous!

Mark

Mark:

This is a good idea and others have asked for this as well. How about offering a version of the Force XL that was about 25" tall, and visually designed to be a column under the Sapphire XLs? To make the width work, the woofer would need to be side firing. How does that sound?

Jimmy B:

How does this sound to you?

[jimmy b]

Mark:

This is a good idea and others have asked for this as well. How about offering a version of the Force XL that was about 25" tall, and visually designed to be a column under the Sapphire XLs? To make the width work, the woofer would need to be side firing. How does that sound?

Jimmy B:

How does this sound to you?

[/quote]

Sounds like a pretty good idea that many people might go for.
I would prefer to have more speaker area in the 70 to 250 hz  mid bass range.
Ryan45872  hought that the speaker would be to high as the Saphire stands are about 26", that seems low to me, I would think the center of the tweeter should be at ear hight while sitting and thats about 42" on my couch, plenty of room to fit in a nice bid bass stack and slip an sub under it. Ryan also says bring back the LFM and maybe thats exactly what we need.

Mike what frequency did the original pair of 10" LFMs cover? just low bass below 80 or up into the mid bass?

[ajayrav]

How about offering a version of the Force XL that was about 25" tall, and visually designed to be a column under the Sapphire XLs? To make the width work, the woofer would need to be side firing. How does that sound?

Mike, that would be wonderful ......and I bet a lot of folks would agree!

Ajay

[Mike Dzurko]

Mark:

This is a good idea and others have asked for this as well. How about offering a version of the Force XL that was about 25" tall, and visually designed to be a column under the Sapphire XLs? To make the width work, the woofer would need to be side firing. How does that sound?

Jimmy B:

How does this sound to you?

Sounds like a pretty good idea that many people might go for.
I would prefer to have more speaker area in the 70 to 250 hz  mid bass range.
Ryan45872  hought that the speaker would be to high as the Saphire stands are about 26", that seems low to me, I would think the center of the tweeter should be at ear hight while sitting and thats about 42" on my couch, plenty of room to fit in a nice bid bass stack and slip an sub under it. Ryan also says bring back the LFM and maybe thats exactly what we need.

Mike what frequency did the original pair of 10" LFMs cover? just low bass below 80 or up into the mid bass?

[/quote]


Folks:


Sounds like we're splitting off into two slightly different paths.

1) Change the form factor of the current Force XL to enable a pair to be used as stands for Sapphire XLs

2) Create something different with a midbass module that could be used as stands for Sapphire XLs. This midbass module would have a range of say 35 or 40-200.  Below that, subwoofer would become optional. And yes, it is not uncommon for owners of Watt/Puppies to use subs for the last octave or so . . .  some of them use our subs.

#1 isn't too difficult to come up with, really just need the appropriate cabinet and a means of mounting/resting the monitors on top . . . we've been playing with this stuff for years

#2 is really a bit different animal. We've given this a LOT of thought and experimentation and continue to do so

The LFM-Jag crossover was at around 100Hz. This is a great thread!

[Mike Dzurko]

Hey Mike,

Any reason it must be max of 13" on a side? That's only 3/4" less than the Force XL.  And reasoning for the second amp? Just trying to get a feel here, thanks!

I am sort of tight on floor space.  But, I agree, 3/4" is not a big compromise. 

On the amp issue...   I go to great lengths to isolate different "stages" of the music path.  The source is isolated from the pre, the pre is isolated from the power amp, and I would not put my power amp on top of the speaker cabinet. 

So why is it good to attach the sub-amp to the sub cabinet??? 

Also, it will lower the weight of the sub, so that I can more easily move it around the room. 

Mike

Mike:

You bring up good points. First, as far as weight, the Force XL and Titan XL cabs are pretty movable, even with the internal amps. However, the Maestro XL is such a beast that was part of the reason for an external amp . . .  that extra 25 lbs would have put it over the edge.

So why put the amps in the sub cabinets? First, the amp darn well better be designed for the environment, many are not. Ever notice that virtually everyone else warrants there subwoofer electronics for only 2-3 years even when they offer a five year warranty on everything else?  There is a darn good reason for this. We offer five years on the amps because quite simply we can afford to because they are built to handle this more difficult environment. IF we went to an external amp we would have the additional cost of a chassis.

[Lkdog]

I got a pair of the LFM SE modules to go with my Jaguars this summer from another AC member who ended up not ever using them.
They are absolutely wonderful sounding and I love how they fit seamlessly under the Jaguars.

I think this type of modular setup was a great idea.


http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1175&pos=1

[satfrat]

I got a pair of the LFM SE modules to go with my Jaguars this summer from another AC member who ended up not ever using them.
They are absolutely wonderful sounding and I love how they fit seamlessly under the Jaguars.

I think this type of modular setup was a great idea.


http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1175&pos=1

I've never heard them but from everything I've read from people who did, they were the best floorstander ACI ever built and were highly cherished. You are one of the lucky one's Lkdog.


Robin

[Lkdog]

I was lucky the bass modules became available at a used price and were only an hour away so I could pick them up.
The LFM SE's weigh 120 lbs apiece. 

The Jags seem to match up well with the Odyssey Mono Extremes.

ACI makes nice speakers and subs.
Have not bought any other brands for years.

[Toka]

1) Change the form factor of the current Force XL to enable a pair to be used as stands for Sapphire XLs

Mike,

I'm a bit late to the ACI party and have only learned about the Jag/LFM combo in the last couple of days...it seems to have the benefits of subs, without the negatives (more wires, more furniture, more "stuff", etc.). I think something like that to be combined with the Sapphire's would be ideal (assuming you can play around with placement, I would guess). Call it LFM 2: The Revenge. 

EDIT: Oh yea, any bipoles/dipoles for surrounds? 

[Ryan45872]

Mike

 Maybe you could use 4 5" midbass  drivers that could operate from 40-250. That way you could make the cabinets the same shape as the Sapphire xls. Call it the SMM Xls (Sapphire midbass modules). Offer it in powered or passive module.

Ryan