burn in

gypsums · « **on:** 6 Sep 2006, 06:10 pm »

can somebody please give me a short explanation of why speaker cables and interconnects have to burn in

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 06:26 pm »

I'm sure people will tell you lots of things, the simple fact is; there is no scientific basis for speaker wire or interconnect burn in.
d.b.

bgewaudio · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 06:32 pm »

I've never heard of this either. I can't see any audible differences it could make on the signal/current transfer.

I've heard not so much about interconnects but with speaker wire some seem to think that increased electromagnetic fields in speaker cable has negative effects on dialect, but still, I can't see how that would make significant audible differences.

gypsums · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 06:43 pm »

if there is no difference why has my new interconnector got instructions not to evaluate the cable until at least 50 hours burn in?

gitarretyp · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 06:53 pm »

I know the structure of the metal can and will change under certain conditions (ie cryoing, heating, large currents), i'm not so sure that the low level signals in the speaker and IC cables will have much effect on the metal of the cable. However, the fields generated in the cables will have an effect on the surrounding dielectric of the cable. The effect of the fields on the dielectric is the most likely source of cable burn-in.

Thebiker · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 07:02 pm »

As Dan said above, there is no scientific reason for it.....neither from a chemical or physics outlook. But, it happens. The same with most equipment, no logical reason, which most manufacturers will admit, but they also tell you to burn in for 100 hours or more prior to evaluation. It certainly makes a difference, even if I don't know why. I hate not knowing why!

gypsums · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 07:07 pm »

ok thanks for the responce

nathanm · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 07:17 pm »

Within 50 hours of music listening you will most likely hear all sorts of things which the manufacturer hopes that you will attribute positively to the burn in phenomenon even though nothing has physically or electrically changed. Although it is also likely that they are a true believer about burn-in being real. (or maybe because the return policy expires after 40 hours? Just kidding...) In any event, you'll be entering a contentious world of audio faith and as Yoda said, 'once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny!" A better course of action might be: Plug The Damn Thing In And Press Play. There's so many other avenues of audiophillia nervosa to pursue, you'll probably get the least amount of satisfaction by concentrating on the burn-in issue. Still, if it bothers you the shortest way to get there is to preheat your oven to 250 degrees farenheit and cook the cable for 8-10 minutes on a greased baking pan. Add a dash of nutmeg powder to taste.

woodsyi · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 07:35 pm »

You know how a yard will settle down in a year or two after the house is built? Hopefully your house foundation and floor won't shift. Same thing is going on with new cables. The metal lattice that passes the charge needs to be aligned with proper directional pathways. The signals are blazing a trail, if you will, in the jungle of metal lattice. Of course if you add a Bybee or two along the way, you promote Cooper paring and super fast gateways form. While the electons are busy blazing a path, the skin is getting a facial with cool teflon in avocado shade which increases (or was it decrease) capacitance. The star quad coiling also need to energize to induce a conduit to shield the signal. All these take 50 listening hours which normally takes 31 calendar days for cables with 30-day return policy. 100 hours for the good ones with longer trial period.

Scott F. · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 07:43 pm »

Not to throw gas on a smoldering fire but I have two words

Quantum Tunneling

Look here
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17372.60
scroll down to my post which is the last one on the page.

I'm not sure I want to respond to any other posts even if they challenge the fact of quantum tunneling. This topic and others like it have a way of turning really ugly, really quick.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 10:51 pm »

It isn't so much the changes that take place in the wire as much as it is the dielectric. Some take longer to form than others. Materials like Teflon can take a long time. The same is true for capacitors. While a standard Sonicap might take 50 to 100 hours, a Sonicap Platinum (Teflon film and foil composite) can take 500 to 1000 hours.

I just went through some interconnect comparisons last week. I was comparing a new set that was made almost identical to the cables that I was already using in my system.

At first listen the new cables sounded very different. The highs were a little harsh. Vocals were a little edgy. Resolution was great, but sharp. They were slightly fatiguing to me. I really couldn't stand to listen to them and certainly couldn't compare or evaluate them. They put me on edge.

Switching back to the well used cables was a relief. They were much smoother. Vocals were relaxing and inviting. Resolution was great and clean. It wasn't difficult to hear the differences.

So the new cables were left to burn in for a week and I came back to compare them again, using the same music.

The new cables smoothed out quite a bit. Gone was the harshness. Gone was the fatigue factor. They were relaxed and sounded very similar to the reference pair. It is hard to believe it was the same cable.

Now as easy as it is for these differences to be heard on my system. I have found that there are a lot of other "audiophile" systems out there that are not capable of revealing these differences. I think this is one of the main reasons why some people claim huge differences and others claim to hear no differences at all.

Don't let the nay sayers fool you. Use your own ears and judge for yourself.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 11:14 pm »

"Now as easy as it is for these differences to be heard on my system. I have found that there are a lot of other "audiophile" systems out there that are not capable of revealing these differences. I think this is one of the main reasons why some people claim huge differences and others claim to hear no differences at all.

Don't let the nay sayers fool you. Use your own ears and judge for yourself. "

PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE SONICROCKS.
d.b.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 11:23 pm »

Dan, I'd love to have you here at my place for just one day.

Let's not confuse something as factual as burn in with the ridiculous scams like sonic rocks, clocks, pebbles, and wall socket plates.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 11:30 pm »

SONICROCKS have superceded every known tweak on the audiophile planet. Our divine Reverend Nathan has warned us to beware of the unbelievers, and to continue full tilt boogie down the blissful path of audio nirvana.
PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE SONICROCKS!
d.b.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 11:41 pm »

Yea, next there will be a special hat to wear or something. Maybe it will be made of Aluminum foil.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Sep 2006, 11:56 pm »

To all of the Audiocircle followers who have come to know the blessings of SONICROCKS and the true path to audio nirvana, please take a minute and pray for the souls of those who have not followed the way that Reverend Nathan has shown us.
PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE SONICROCKS!
d.b.

JohninCR · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Sep 2006, 01:18 am »

Quote from: Dan Banquer on 6 Sep 2006, 11:14 pm

Don't let the nay sayers fool you. Use your own ears and judge for yourself. "

I absolutely agree. All believers and anyone with a question in their mind should spent $50 that will save them a bundle in the long run. Buy yourself a length of CAT5 or 6 and a $10 A/B switch. Cut the cable into 6 equal sections and clearly mark the 3 pairs. Send a pair off to a reputable cryo outfit. Start burning in one pair. Once you get the cryo'd pair back, invite a friend over. Hook the wires up to your speakers via the A/B switch, so the switch from one to another is seamless (just the turn of the switch). Listen as long as you like to each or switch right in the middle of passages, with the other person doing the switching. Once you understand that there is no audible difference, throw some other types of speaker cables to the mix.

Been there, done that, and now I know there is no difference (at least with speaker cables). That's not to say that the measureable properties of different cables can't make an audible difference, but if it does, it's due to the cable acting as a filter and who wants that.

The RS switch we used was so seamless that I had to check to make sure it was functioning properly, because there was no interruption at all in the music, and not even a flicker in the image, soundstage or tone. It was quite the eye opener, because I had been convinced by believers that I trusted.

I challenge anyone who believes this speaker cable myth to perform this quick and easy test for themselves. Anyone unwilling to even try doesn't really believe in their convictions.

DSK · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Sep 2006, 02:05 am »

Quote from: JohninCR on 7 Sep 2006, 01:18 am

...Once you understand that there is no audible difference...

That is an assumption on your part.

Quote from: JohninCR on 7 Sep 2006, 01:18 am

...Been there, done that, and now I know there is no difference (at least with speaker cables). ...

Only valid for your ears, your system, your room, your cables, with your switch box. Doesn't prove that all speaker cables sound the same.

Quote from: JohninCR on 7 Sep 2006, 01:18 am

...The RS switch we used was so seamless that I had to check to make sure it was functioning properly, because there was no interruption at all in the music, and not even a flicker in the image, soundstage or tone. It was quite the eye opener, because I had been convinced by believers that I trusted.

The 'switching' between outputs may have been 'seamless' with no clicking of contacts etc, but this doesn't mean that the switch box itself was totally 'transparent' and didn't mask subtle differences between cables.

Quote from: JohninCR on 7 Sep 2006, 01:18 am

...I challenge anyone who believes this speaker cable myth to perform this quick and easy test for themselves. Anyone unwilling to even try doesn't really believe in their convictions.

Or, doesn't need to in order to confirm differences (or not) they hear in their own system that they know extremely well, using test material that they know extremely well.

All things considered, I do agree that the differences between many speaker cables are subtle at best, but I have certainly heard differences between some cables. Obviously, if 2 pairs of speaker cables sound different then either one pair is not accurate (and accuracy depends on the listener) or both are inaccurate but one moreso than the other.

To boldly claim that 'all speaker cables sound the same' is to suggest that the hifi industry (at least cables manufacturers, pro reviewers, owner reviewers) is part of a conspiracy, or that none of them can hear worth a damn compared to you.

I have no trouble accepting that you heard no differences in your test. But, you can't therefore superimpose your beliefs onto others as facts, just as they can't force theirs onto you. As a result of your test, you cannot authoritively tell me that I heard no differences when I clearly did. What we hear is very subjective, nobody hears exactly the same, so there can be no absolutes.

JohninCR · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Sep 2006, 02:25 am »

Until you've done a similar test yourself and could with reasonable accuracy identified the different cables, then you offer no valid evidence whatsoever. Do it yourself rather than sit back a take potshots at someone else. It's quick, simple, and perfectly valid. I went into it thinking there would be at least some subtle difference, and 3 of us spent hours trying. It's an eye-opener.

Also, don't try to change the subject. I didn't say all cables sound the same. I said burn in and cryo treatment make no difference with speaker cables. That's the valid test I performed. Obviously cables can and do have measureable properties that can have some form of filtration effect, so they could sound different. BTW, I also said nothing about IC's, capacitors, tubes, or anything other than speaker wires.

Occam · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Sep 2006, 02:39 am »

John,

What specifically did this a-b switch switch. Could you provide a link to the specific switch? The manufacturer and model #?

TIA,
Paul