How can I mod the DAC-60?

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persolo

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How can I mod the DAC-60?
« on: 3 Sep 2006, 07:49 pm »
Hi,

I recently got myself a DAC60 and would like to mod it myself but need some instructions as I have never done anything like this before. What kind of parts should I replace, where do I buy them, how do I change the tubes, etc.

Hope anyone can give me some pointers :wink:

PS! My dad is an electrician so I will ask him for help when I know what we will have to change.

JoshK

Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #1 on: 4 Sep 2006, 03:04 am »
I am planning to pick one of these up to mod.  I have been reading up on the digital side of things, as I already have some pretty good ideas on the analog side.  I'd be willing to start a project in the open when I get to it (warning! this may mean quite some time).  In the mean time I can guide you on some ideas I have.  You'd be the guineau pig.

Wonder if we could get a schematic?  That would help immensely.  If not, I could reverse engineer one.

Btw, good choice of mod candidates.  Its got a good receiver and the BB1704U dac is suppose to be the bomb (multi-bit, not the typical sigma-delta schleck they pimp now). 

I plan to use this dac to test out a scheme for slaving the transport off the DAC's clock.  So this will mean some surgery to the DAC's clock, but it isn't too complicated of surgery.  After this is done, then I will examine how the I/V stage is implemented and if neccesary go after that, then the tube gain stage (easy part).  Of course, before all of these comes the low haning fruit, which is the power supply.  PSU's usually leave the easiest mods to be done.


persolo

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #2 on: 4 Sep 2006, 11:19 am »
JoshK: I've sent you a PM.

As for doing modifications I'm really a noob, but would really like to learn. So here I am having a DAC-60 and would like to use it as a primer. If I could only get it to work now that one channel have stopped outputting audio after a 12 hour burn-in. I suppose that will be my first task  :o

FredT300B

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #3 on: 4 Sep 2006, 11:41 am »
Wonder if we could get a schematic?  That would help immensely.  If not, I could reverse engineer one.

Email me at fredaudio at houston dot rr dot com and I will send you an Adobe schematic of the DAC-50, which is identical to the DAC-60 except for one chip. I did a couple of simple mods to mine, including upgrading the output caps and installing a choke in the high voltage power supply. Danny has the right value Sonicaps for the upgrade. Pictures of the mods are here:

http://fredt300b.smugmug.com/gallery/1211061

persolo

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #4 on: 4 Sep 2006, 12:38 pm »
Thank you for your images!

Now I only have to find out why I should change which parts. One thing is following the instructions, but I would also like to know what should be expected in terms of audible changes from the replacements of parts.

FredT300B

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #5 on: 4 Sep 2006, 01:54 pm »
I would...like to know what should be expected in terms of audible changes from the replacements of parts.
  :scratch:

This probably is best answered by Danny since he has heard the DAC-60 with various parts mods. I'm mostly familiar with the output caps. The DAC-60 sounds good as it comes from the factory, so parts upgrades aren't necessary. But if you want to get all that the design is capable of, it helps to upgrade some parts.

To my ears the most dramatic change comes from upgrading the output caps. The Wima and Solen caps you find in all but the most expensive components sound good, but they do add a slightly artificial and harsh sound to the treble that becomes fatiguing after some time. The Sonicaps probably don't "add" any resolution, they do remove the thin veil of harshness that masks it. In non-audiophile terms, the treble becomes clearer.


persolo

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #6 on: 4 Sep 2006, 03:04 pm »
I guess changing the tubes would also change the unit to the better for most people. After a closer look at your pictures I can see your tubes aren't the same as came with mine (Sovtek).

JoshK

Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #7 on: 4 Sep 2006, 05:07 pm »
Those blue stock caps are Wima?  They kind of look like Rifa's to me.  Rifa's are quite good actually. 

Anywho...

When I get a chance to look it over, I'll detail some of my thoughts for mods. 

FredT300B

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #8 on: 6 Sep 2006, 12:58 pm »
Those blue stock caps are Wima?  They kind of look like Rifa's to me.  Rifa's are quite good actually. 

I'm not sure what the brand is, but you're right - they're not Wimas. I find myself using the generic term "Wima" to describe those rectangular caps that are found in most high end equipment. Kinda like "Fritos".

Jampot

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #9 on: 6 Sep 2006, 02:40 pm »
Fritos make caps too?

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

JoshK

Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #10 on: 6 Sep 2006, 05:11 pm »
If you guys want to do some reading to help bulk up your brain on plausible mod directions, I have some suggestions on where to start.

Analog side
- tubecad.com:  John Broskie has some recent articles on DAC output stages using tubes.  He is an excellent writer and breaks down the theory into digestible pieces.  Also take a look at his many many articles on the Aikido topology
-  [need to look up link] : has a great synopsis on adding tube stages to cd players.
- www.pacifier.com/~gpimm: Gary Pimm's documents on CCS's.
- Nutshellhifi.com: Gary Pimm/Lynn Olson's Raven preamp would plausible lend itself well to a killer DAC output stage [this would be a complete rebuild on the current tube stage in the DAC 60, but may be worthwhile down the line].
-  audioroundtable.com/groupbuild/projects : Guinevere preamp.

Also: SY's herectical linestage on diyaudio.com for a different approach.

Digital side
- diyhifi.org:  The digital forum has an immense, but mildly difficult to digest, collection of digital knowledge.  There are a number of dicussions on slaving transports, I/V conversions, ASYNC vs SYNC, filters, etc.  This has been my only source thus far, apart from a few topics on diyaudio.com.

PSU's
too numerous to list, but shunt regulating with ccs as in GP/LO's work, JB's Aikido and other CCS loaded stages put less demand on the PSU.  That said, what does a little excess hurt?  How about a look at the minimal reactance PSU (Kevin Carter of K&K Audio has a page on it)?  GP/LO's PSU in the Raven doesn't look half bad.  Then there is the low DCR PSU presented and discussed on AA's tube diy asylum.   All are current works at the SOTA.   

However, once we get a good handle on what is already done inside the DAC-60 we can create an ideas list of easy to do and more work to do mods/rebuilds.  I got the schematic but haven't looked at it yet.


FredT300B

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #11 on: 6 Sep 2006, 06:37 pm »
Fritos make caps too?

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

No, Fritos is a chip manufacturer. Intel, TI, Fritos, etc.  :jester:

JoshK

Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #12 on: 7 Sep 2006, 06:41 am »
Since I can't seem to sleep, I thought I'd take a look at the DAC60 schematic and see what I can see.  Of course this all changes when you pop the hood and see how much (or how little) room there is to work with and whether the boards make it practical to mod. 

Here is what I see....
From the digital side, I see U1, your receiver, U2 is your digital filter, and U3 & U4 are your left and right channel DACs.  From my quick glance they don't look to be balanced dacs, somehow I thought the 1704s were....not that that is a bad thing mind you. 
X1 is the local clock, but I am clueless as to what clocking scheme is employed.  I just see it is fed into the receiver and passed from there to DF & dacs.  Is it really a 6.1Mhz clock or is this a typo?  I thought clocks were typically 11, 16, 33Mhz.

From the Dacs' current output there is an LCLC filter (lowpass filter) and then an SRPP tube stage, which provides both gain and low output impedance.  Below the lower dac is the schematic for the tube's B+ supply (some call it HT (high tension) supply).  The B+ has a regulator for each channel.   Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I beleive this to be the shunt type of regulator (as opposed to the series type). 

The rest of the schematic is the psu and regulators (vanilla lm317 chip regulators) for the various voltages (dacs, cpu, etc).  I didn't see on the schematic where the heater were, are they AC heated?  Then there is a schematic for a CPU.  I assume this CPU is for control of logic & switching, but I am not sure.

Fred, you replaced the B+ CRC filter resistor with a choke correct?  That will improve regulation a bit further. 

Myself, I'd be inclined to change the analog stage a bit dramatically, loosing the SRPP stage by ditching the top triode and adding a cascoded CCS.  For the 6922/6DJ8 at least, it would seem that you have enough B+ to do it.  The alternative would be to add in some resistors, a cap, maybe an extra dual triode per channel and turn it into an Aikido output.  In these cases, the extra regulation of a choke in the input filter wouldn't be necessary, I'd think.

Having a look at this DAC's schematic has gotten me pretty excited about it's potential.  I think I am definitely going to have to pick one up.

The easy mods are most certainly changing the output coupling caps (2.2uf blue caps) or maybe try bypassing with .02uf of your favorite exotic cap (teflon, platinum, et al).  Replace the SPDIF RCA with a true 75ohm BNC connector (do your transport side too) and use a true 75ohm cable. 

Then I might take a look at what electrolytics are being used in the PSU's, but this only yields just so much IMO.  Dampening (physically) the clock.  Ponder whether the low voltage regulators for the DACs would benefit from better regulators, maybe even consider bursonaudio's discrete regulators. 

What are your guys' thoughts?



LeChuck

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #13 on: 15 Sep 2006, 11:10 pm »
My new caps arrived today, 2 x 3.3uF Sonicaps ($20) and 2 x 0.1uF AudioCap TFT ($75), so I popped those in. I have have a couple of big Elna electroytics that you can see in the pics. Anyways, for about $100 in film caps the sound is absolutely exceptional, and I can't wait to add more to this great DAC.



It's a little bit messy because when I was installing the caps I wasn't paying attention and didn't leave enough room for the tubes to get back in. Unfortunately I had already cut the leads on the caps, so there was only so much I could do, and I had to get a little creative. Oh well, what's done is done, and it sounds good regardless of how it looks.

The next step will be a BlackGate WKZ cap, and some Siemens tubes.

JoshK

Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #14 on: 16 Sep 2006, 12:00 am »
I just bought one of these little DACs.  So now I can play around for real.

JoshK

Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #15 on: 16 Sep 2006, 12:19 am »
Here is what I see....
From the digital side, I see U1, your receiver, U2 is your digital filter, and U3 & U4 are your left and right channel DACs.  From my quick glance they don't look to be balanced dacs, somehow I thought the 1704s were....not that that is a bad thing mind you. 
X1 is the local clock, but I am clueless as to what clocking scheme is employed.  I just see it is fed into the receiver and passed from there to DF & dacs.  Is it really a 6.1Mhz clock or is this a typo?  I thought clocks were typically 11, 16, 33Mhz.

Ok, after some more reading, I realize that it is indeed a 6.1Mhz clock.  Multibit dacs make less demand of the speed of a DAC (thus creating less jitter). This is a good thing.  The reclocking is asynchronous which is more flexible with different sources but less ideal for 44.1Khz.  I'd like to try to slave the transport off the DACs clock and make the reclocking synchronous, but that is a more ambitious mod.  First things first....

BTW, if I am loosing anyone, just holler and I'll take a couple steps back and try to explain.

I think the key elements to tackle are regulation of the various circuits.  All the low voltage regulators are the very pedestrian LM317.  I think we can improve on this and empirically determine whether this matters...I am only guessing it does.  DC coupling caps on the outputs have been done here already.  What type of diodes are used on the B+?  If they are low quality then high speed soft recovery type would be a nice improvement.

I am definitely going to look at changing the tube section to ccs loaded grounded cathode from the SRPP current.  That should be a nice step up and not too hard to do. 

LeChuck

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #16 on: 16 Sep 2006, 01:02 am »
Quote
I'd like to try to slave the transport off the DACs clock and make the reclocking synchronous, but that is a more ambitious mod.

I'm curious how you'd go about that. Wouldn't it be easier to just put in I2S?

JoshK

Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #17 on: 16 Sep 2006, 01:07 am »
Maybe, maybe not.  From what I've read, it seems its about the same amount of work.  Sending I2S a distance (between components) is no small task and requires very high bandwidth components and can be very susceptible to EMI.   Slaving the transport requires just sending the clock back to the transport via another RCA cable, then in essense the SP/DIF no longer carries the embedded clock and jitter is no longer an issue.

P.S. just in case it isn't blatantly clear, I have basically no knowledge of these things other than having read a bunch of threads on various methods.  I am not a digital engineer. 

Bequerel

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Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #18 on: 17 Sep 2006, 02:14 pm »
You can read about the mod I did to mine here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=27538.0
(... and you really have to change the tubes to something better than stock. I am using matched NOS TESLA E88CC Gold Pin.)


JoshK

Re: How can I mod the DAC-60?
« Reply #19 on: 17 Sep 2006, 03:55 pm »
It looks like you did a great job on modding.  Most of your mods are really straight forward and I think most DIY'ers here could tackle them.  It looks like to eeked out uber performance with simple mods.   Any comments on the sound before and after?

I really like your choice of the IXYS bridge upgrade.  In my experience, with my UcD amps they really did smooth out the amp quite a bit.  Did you try changing any of the regulators?

I will probably use Rubycon Z*'s for the low voltage caps because that is what I have on hand.