New AV series omni-surround. The AV-O.

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Danny Richie

New AV series omni-surround. The AV-O.
« on: 19 Aug 2006, 10:25 pm »
Continuing from the discussion here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=30522.0

It had strayed to a new idea so I am starting this part as a new thread.

The idea was for an omni-directional, free standing speaker to be primarily used as surround channels.

I threw together a test box to see how the drivers performed in this application and to see what the limitations or difficulties might be.

I mounted one M-130 woofer firing straight up and side mounted a GR-T2 tweeter.



I slotted the bottom and made it adjustable to also experiment with a transmission line type loading. I may still go to a single port though.

The off axis response of the woofer was really smooth and mating the GR-T2 tweeter to it was no problem.



The impedance was really flat with a little ripple in the 200Hz range due to a little cavity resonance. I'll have to look into that later.

The spectral decay was really clean too.

Listening revealed something else though. It, like the A/V-1RS design, picked up quite a bit of room gain and on up into frequency ranges to around 1000Hz or so. The vocal area was a little thick and heavy. Taking an RTA (room response) measurement and un-gated MLS response showed it was heavy in the lower end. Measuring a standard A/V-1 setting right next to it confirmed this as well. It was going to have to have a response that was tilted heavier to the top end to have a more balanced room response. I did this with the A/V-1RS as well.

So I re-balanced the response to look like this.



This, like the last posted response, was a gated, 1 watt/1 meter measurement.

Yes it looks hot in the top end and it is at this distance and with no room gain. But the in room responses show otherwise. Listening impressions leave me feeling like it is still just a tad heavy in the 1000Hz and down region.

But, it does sound pretty damn good. It has a big sound to it. Instruments like a piano have a very real sense to them. It played into the room and not at me. I look forward to finding the time in the coming weeks to design a pair from what I learned in this test and finding out just how good a pair can sound.

These may not only be killer good surround speakers but might make good left and right mains as well.

How about this impedance response?



And the spectral decay... Man that is clean.



If I can tweak this to my satisfaction, the kit price will be very inexpensive. It will no more than a standard A/V-1 or A/V-1RS. The only thing that might bump the kit price a little is the addition of floor spikes, but the inductor values get smaller on a design like this and it might offset.

More later.
« Last Edit: 27 Sep 2006, 02:00 pm by Danny »

klh

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #1 on: 19 Aug 2006, 11:34 pm »
Very interesting. Will you consider a version with the Neo3 PDR? That would be incredible! Having OB-5s or OB-7s up front and these with the Neo3 PDRs around the back would be very inviting :D. Speaking of HT systems, have you finished the design of the center channel speaker?

Danny Richie

Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #2 on: 20 Aug 2006, 12:33 am »
Quote
Very interesting. Will you consider a version with the Neo3 PDR? That would be incredible!

I have already been thinking about it. It should be no problem.

Quote
Speaking of HT systems, have you finished the design of the center channel speaker?

I just need to sit down and draw up the box plans.

HAL

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #3 on: 20 Aug 2006, 01:25 am »
Reminds me of the Allison Acoustics CD-6 cube speaker.  Acoustic suspension design.  Sat against the front wall on a stand.   :thumb:

Doublej

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #4 on: 21 Aug 2006, 01:25 am »
How are these compare to the design apporach of the Samadhi Ichiban?

http://www.blackdahlia.com/samadhi/samadhi_ichiban_review.htm

Danny Richie

Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #5 on: 21 Aug 2006, 01:42 am »
Looks like a very similar design.

Doublej

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #6 on: 21 Aug 2006, 06:27 pm »
Danny,

This might be exactly what I am looking for in a new pair of main speakers. I have a few questions for you.

Is this design more or less sensitive to speaker positioning?

Does the design require a square cross section or could you design it with a rectangle cross section, i.e. make the front narrower and make it a bit deeper. That might help the WAF.

Did I interpret your comment above correctly, i.e. this might be available as a full kit with cabinets for under $1000/pair?






Danny Richie

Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #7 on: 21 Aug 2006, 06:37 pm »
Quote
Is this design more or less sensitive to speaker positioning?


I am going to have to do a little more work with these and start seeing what the pros and cons might be for using them as left and right mains.

Quote
Does the design require a square cross section or could you design it with a rectangle cross section, i.e. make the front narrower and make it a bit deeper.

Actually I made the width not much wider than what was dictated by the size of the woofer. I might can get away with making the cabinet only 7" wide, but will need to check woofer to tweeter clearances internally.

Quote
Did I interpret your comment above correctly, i.e. this might be available as a full kit with cabinets for under $1000/pair?

My thoughts were more along the lines of $229. for the kit (for a pair).

klh

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #8 on: 21 Aug 2006, 07:00 pm »
If these work out well for mains... especially in an HT, you could do various versions...

1) A tall ported cabinet with one up firing M-130 woofer and one front mounted GR-T2 tweeter as already indicated. This would be designed to mate with the AV series speakers.

2) A tall ported cabinet with one up firing M-130 woofer and one front mounted Neo3 PDR. This would be designed to mate with the OB series speakers.

3) A tall ported cabinet with one up firing M-130X woofer and one front mounted Neo3 PDR. This would be designed to mate with the upcoming LS series speakers.

4) A short sealed cabinet with one up firing M-130X woofer and one front mounted Neo3 PDR. This would be a center channel speaker that would sacrifice low end extension in favor of decreased size and would be designed to mate with the tall ported M-130X / Neo3 PDR speaker. In this case, the tall ported M-130X / Neo3 PDR speaker would be used as front L&R, surround and back surround speakers.

If you made options 3 and 4 one could get a very affordable surround system that is damn good. It would basically have the same speakers all the way around, it would work well in a smallish to medium sized room and no subwoofer would be required. A system with that combination of speakers would have extremely high WAF and definitely is my favorite. This would also leave the potential for upgrading to the LS series line arrays for the front L&R when more disposable income is available (or the system is moved to a larger room). A new center channel would most likely become necessary but you get my point.

There is a lot of potential :D.
« Last Edit: 21 Aug 2006, 08:56 pm by klh »

george king

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #9 on: 22 Aug 2006, 05:03 pm »
this might be just what I need, given that I cant really use the av1s speakers as surrounds.  One quick question though, how tall is the cabinet?

Keep up the great work.

hayden

Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #10 on: 25 Aug 2006, 07:36 am »
Danny,
Looks like you and Siegfried are on the same wavelength: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/intro.htm
The Mirage Omni line is similar as well.  Maybe great design minds think alike :green:
JP

klh

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #11 on: 25 Aug 2006, 04:14 pm »
That was discussed in the thread referred to in Danny's original post.

klh

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #12 on: 5 Sep 2006, 10:09 pm »
Danny... have you had a chance to work on these (especially the one with the Neo3 PDR)? How tall will they be? The reason I'm asking is if they are only 36" tall then one could put 3 of them up front under a front projection screen. Sure they wouldn't be super sensitive, but it would be nice to have all speakers the same in an HT.

Danny Richie

Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #13 on: 5 Sep 2006, 10:30 pm »
I have not had a chance to get back on this one yet.

I do have plans for an AV series version (using the GR-T2 tweeter), and a version using the NEo 3 pdr.

Height will be about 36" tall.

Output levels might be higher than you think.

klh

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #14 on: 5 Sep 2006, 10:45 pm »
 :D.

Danny Richie

Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #15 on: 27 Sep 2006, 03:12 am »
I got a pair of these up an playing today. They sound very impressive. They sound BIG.

If you are setting in the center then the imaging is really good. The sound field is large and instruments are well placed. Vocals are extremely good and have a really feeling about them. The sound of the cabinet is gone.

They are also very transparent and it is really hard to believe that all of this is coming from such a small speaker.

Off axis listening does not have the pin point imaging but it is not bad either. Even off axis the sound does not appear to come directly from the speaker.

When A/B'ing them to the standard A/V-1, the A/V-1 got clobbered.

These are going to really exceed the rear surround roll and be just as well suited for left and right mains.

These were a joy to listen to.

I can't wait for everyone to hear these. They will be a very inexpensive kit and very easy to build.  :thumb:

I'll post new pics and new measurments later.

phoenix_rising

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Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #16 on: 27 Sep 2006, 11:06 am »
I got a pair of these up an playing today. They sound very impressive. They sound BIG.


I have been lurking here waiting to see/hear what the new line arrays will look like and saw this design. Will the design be using the new 130X woofer ?

I would also be interested in what type of designs you are considering for the matching surrounds and rears for the up coming line arrays and if you will also eventually be doing an OB based line array in the future.


Danny Richie

Re: New AV series omni-surround? Maybe
« Reply #17 on: 27 Sep 2006, 01:22 pm »
Quote
Will the design be using the new 130X woofer ?

It uses the standard M-130.

Quote
I would also be interested in what type of designs you are considering for the matching surrounds and rears for the up coming line arrays and if you will also eventually be doing an OB based line array in the future.

I do have some ideas for matching surrounds. I also have a large OB line source on the drawing board.

Next for me will be another omni but with the Neo 3 pdr. It will match the OB series speakers. I believe I will do this one with dual woofers to increase power handling and lower distortion. If it is anything like the AV-O then it will be killer.

Doublej

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Re: New AV series omni-surround. The AV-O.
« Reply #18 on: 27 Sep 2006, 02:49 pm »
You should name the new one The Big-O:)

ooheadsoo

Re: New AV series omni-surround. The AV-O.
« Reply #19 on: 27 Sep 2006, 03:57 pm »
I think that's copyrighted  :icon_lol: