[earlmarc]

Do you find any benefit isolating power conditioners? I have tried various isolation feet under my Sound Application conditioner. I didn't notice any difference. Might it also depend on the type of conditioner?

[tdangelo]

When I had my BPT (sold) I used the Finite Elemente Ceraball's.  I was able to notice that the bass was tighter and more defined.  It was a repeatable experiment - they stayed in place

Tony

[Occam]

Earlmarc,

The manufacturer of your Sound Application conditioner might well already have addressed coupling/decoupling. On my own diy Felicia conditioners, I found that mi-rollers work exceedingly well, but as a cheap SOB, I content myself with unhappy balls (don't go there) made from Nosorex, available from Arbor Scientific. It may also be that transformer based conditioners such as the BPT and Felicia benefit more from isolation measures due to the magnetorestrictive vibrational effects of those transformers.

[mgalusha]

With my BPT I've found it to make a difference. So far the best results I have are three of the large brass cones from Mapleshade pointing down into my floor (carpet over plywood). I tried a piece of hard maple with and without the cones and that was not as good as the large cones into the floor. I also had a set of  audio selection cones and thought that with the BPT the were not a good way to go.

[earlmarc]

Earlmarc,

The manufacturer of your Sound Application conditioner might well already have addressed coupling/decoupling. On my own diy Felicia conditioners, I found that mi-rollers work exceedingly well, but as a cheap SOB, I content myself with unhappy balls (don't go there) made from Nosorex, available from Arbor Scientific. It may also be that transformer based conditioners such as the BPT and Felicia benefit more from isolation measures due to the magnetorestrictive vibrational effects of those transformers.

Occam,

My limited experience with electronic behavior is probably why you didn't understand my question. I will try to explain my question. My understanding of coupling is that coupling is two forces working in parallel but opposite directions. Such action can cause rotation. If the electrical flow from a transformer(which may introduce vibration) is introduced into a coupling device and if there is rotation, does this increase the possibility of distortion and or effect sound performace?

[brj]

So far the best results I have are three of the large brass cones from Mapleshade pointing down into my floor (carpet over plywood). I tried a piece of hard maple with and without the cones and that was not as good as the large cones into the floor.

Mike, spiking the BPT directly sounds interesting, but how did you attach the cones to the BPT?

Thanks!

[Occam]

Earlmarc,

I'm assuming that 'rotational' forces you're referring to is the 'right hand rule' defined by Maxwell's Equations (its been 33+ yrs) which refer to electromagnetic forces being perpendicular to the electric route in electromagnetic devices. Dunno...., but I'm assuming they're related to what is referred to a magnetorestrictive behavior of magnetically permeable (as in the 'iron' core of transformers) materials. This actually makes the cores of transformers, inductors, etc... flex when subject to a coils current, and when that current is AC, vibrate. Prior to specifically experimenting with power conditioners, I'd thought the mechanism was purely those vibrations affecting mechanically coupled sensitive circuits like preamps, dacs, etc... but I've found that powerconditioners themselves benefit by various damping measures. Frankly, I'm unsure as to the specific mechanism, and can only offer - 'I hears what I hears', and don't think it purely a placebo effect.
Perhaps Tianguis (Larry) who has far more empirical experience, or GBB (Gary), who is far more technically versed, could weigh in.

Regards,
Paul

[Bob Wilcox]

I used Mapleshade Isoblocks supporting a 3 inch thick maple platform and then brass cones under my ExactPower EP-15 on my hardwood floor. I was shocked by the improvent in image focus when I placed an Arcici Airhead underneath the Isoblocks.

Bob

[Bob Wilcox]

Daryl

Your question about measurements vanished. I don't have any for you except my ears. This effect is repeatable here and can be heard on the fly by changing the amount of air in the bladders, totally deflating them or removing the Air Head.

My theory is that the massive amounts of wire in power cords along with the wood floor were transmitting the vibration into and out of the conditioner and that the pneumatic isolation is an effective approach in this particular situation. YMMV.

An entirely different approach might be used to deal with the vibration that could originate solely within the conditioner.

Bob

[Daryl]

Hi Bob,

I deleted my post because in the end it will be nothing more than inflammatory.

I see the mainstream of audiophiles the same as I see the line of folks at Starbucks waiting half an hour for a small drink costing $5.00 and not very tasty.

I like Coke myself.

I see things sometimes and think I am just going to say few words and change everyones mind.

That never happens.

[Occam]

Hi Bob,

I deleted my post because in the end it will be nothing more than inflammatory.
I see the mainstream of audiophiles the same as I see the line of folks at Starbucks waiting half an hour for a small drink costing $5.00 and not very tasty.
I like Coke myself.
I see things sometimes and think I am just going to say few words and change everyones mind.

Daryl,

I didn't see your post, but if it was, like the above comment, a reference to cost, indeed, it was inflammatory. Moreover, it is specious. Cost has nothing to do with the efficacy of some particular tweak. I spend $5 on my upgrade powercords, $25 on my powerconditioners, and $6/component for isolation.  I agree with you that Starbucks coffee is wretched, but at home I normally drink LaVatza, and if I'm indulgent, Ille and in the scheme of things, they're quite expensive.

Perceived value is subject to individual metrics. Your certainly entitled to dispute the cost/benefit ratio of a given expenditure, or even if its of actual benefit.  I'd probably agree with you on many. But to question technical validity with that typical -
If you spend more than $xxx on ZZZ, I've a bridge to sell you.
is illogical and intellectually specious.

If someone wants to spend $25, $50 or whatever on a Machina Pantagruel outlet cover, its no nevermind to me, unless I see it as a endangering someones life. And until I do my own empirical evaluation, I stay out of it. And I do wish everyone would spare me their definitive thought experiments.

So what specific damping/isolation products/techniques have you actually evaluated?

[Daryl]

Hi Occam,

Not necessarily focusing on the cost issue but more the state of mind of the common man.

Cost is just one thing you focus in on and say "I don't believe it".

If you remove cost from the equation you still have the same picture.

I would not waste time filtering AC power because when you rectify it in your equipment you have all it's harmonics full strength even if the power source is perfect.

I would not be against bolstering the filter in my equipments power supplies if I thought it needed it.

I also think it is a good idea for equipment to have it's own enclosure.

Daryl

[Occam]

Hi Occam,
......
I would not waste time filtering AC power because when you rectify it in your equipment you have all it's harmonics full strength even if the power source is perfect.......

Your point being?
Are you maintaining that you've not heard any subjective benefits from your experience with proper ac line conditioning?
Would you describe your specific evaluations that led you to this conclusion?

I would not be against bolstering the filter in my equipments power supplies if I thought it needed it.

And if you did think you needed it, please tell us specifically how you'd go about attenuating line borne transverse mode noise?

TIA,
Paul

[mgalusha]

Mike, spiking the BPT directly sounds interesting, but how did you attach the cones to the BPT?

It's just sitting on the cones, points down. These were the big ones, about 1.5" in diameter or so. I have thought about drilling/tapping the cones and bolting them to the BPT but I've never done more than think about it. I was actually surprised to hear a differance. As heavy as the BPT is I figured it would be fairly inert. It was interesting to swap various combinations of cones and boards in/out and observe the changes.

mike

[Daryl]

Hi Occam,
......
I would not waste time filtering AC power because when you rectify it in your equipment you have all it's harmonics full strength even if the power source is perfect.......

Your point being?
Are you maintaining that you've not heard any subjective benefits from your experience with proper ac line conditioning?
Would you describe your specific evaluations that led you to this conclusion?

I would not be against bolstering the filter in my equipments power supplies if I thought it needed it.

And if you did think you needed it, please tell us specifically how you'd go about attenuating line borne transverse mode noise?

TIA,
Paul

When you rectify the 60hz line Paul the harmonics produced have an amplitude greater than that of the powerline noise.

The power supply filter in your equipment if it is to be effective must remove these harmonics.

Powerline noise will be removed as well.

If you would like further reduction of powerline noise/harmonics it is easier to address it on the DC side of the power supply.

Not only is it easier but you are reducing not only the power line noise but also the rectifier harmonics.

You usually can find a harmonic or two from the AC line when you measure the noise floor of a piece of equipment so it doesn't make sense to attack power line noise where it is harder to deal with and at the same time leave rectifier harmonics untouched.

Transverse powerline noise is the easy one it simply adds to the noise voltage of your equipments power supply.

You can go brute force by using extreme levels of capacitance or you can implement PI-R or PI-L topologies.

Common mode problems would be harder to remedy.

I would prefer that all equipment use floating inputs like most car amplifiers.

So long as your inputs have a good CMRR common mode AC line problems wont be a problem.

If your equipment does not have floating inputs then it is relying on the primary/secondary capacitance of it's power transformer being very low allowing the ground levels of interconnected equipment to float to the same potential while cause very very little current to flow in the ground lines.

What it all comes down to is that your equipment needs to be designed well which doesn't always happen even in very expensive equipment.

Transverse mode powerline noise will be stopped by a good power supply, if you can't design a power supply you should not be in the buiseness.

Common mode power line noise will be stopped by good floating inputs and low primary/secondary capacitance in the power transformer.

Microphonics can by addressed by proper mechanical design of a componet.

Most importantly these things are only a problem if you can measure a problem.

Subjective listening tests allow you to fool yourself.

If these things need to be adressed measure them implement the solution and measure the result.

Daryl

[Carlman]

Subjective listening tests allow you to fool yourself.
Daryl

I liked that statement so much I made it my signature... altered slightly to make sense as my sig.  I need to go to go back to good 'value' brands of gear like 'Soundesign', 'GPX', and the like... This high-dollar stuff is just me kidding myself! Man, that's a relief.  I'm going to save thousands!   

[serengetiplains]

Occam, Daryl's responses show he either doesn't hear AC mains grunge, or doesn't think it's important.  In either case, he lives in a different universe.  Just ignore him.

[Occam]

Hey Serengeti -

Its nice to have you visit from the Great White North. So diyAudio isn't contentious enough for you? I'm still thinking about acquiring some of those Elgars.
I did ask specifically what conditioners he'd tried, which was ignored, and got typical 'academic' answers, which when they weren't flat out wrong, were Sisyphean at best. I'm perfectly capable of misinterpreting Horowitz and Hill without any help. Here I was thinking common mode noise was easily dealt with via CMCs and transformer action and transverse noise was the problem.... live and learn. Practical implementations of anything are always easier said than done, but thought experiments always turn out perfectly.

Welcome to AudioCircles,
Paul

[serengetiplains]

Paul, nice to be here.  Yes, I can't remember a posting that doesn't get some strong response from someone: can't be true ("can't," how extreme), you're fooling yourself (how insulting), ears don't work like every other of your nerve systems, ie, can't be trained to discern differences (how absurd).

Ah, the Elgars.  I seem to have gone a bit crazy with these things.  I've lately taken to plugging them in series to excellent effect on the theory that the control circuitry runs, as it must, straight off the mains, so why not give that circuitry cleaner electricity?  Well, it works, and on more than the Elgars, as I've tried it on PS Audio gear etc.  The Elgars, for their part, are plugged into a large Topaz 5KVA isolation transformer (-140dB noise) ... inserting that was itself audible.

When Daryl says your power supply "removes" harmonics, he can only mean "reduces."  A power supply is but a voltage divider that shunts some noise away from the active circuitry, but never all, the psu being a voltage "divider."  This leaves only the question whether the proportion of noise left to work its way in the circuitry is audible.  My experiments suggest that noise is quite audible.  For my part, I don't like inserting anything into my system I don't need, especially a class B amplifier (Elgars) as everything is effectively, and to some degree, in series with the output.  But some evils are worse than other evils.  So I'm actually now listening to class B amplifiers + class D amplifiers + SMPSs + isolation transformers and enjoying the best sound I've had the opportunity to hear. 

FWIW, my 20 year old daughter approached me yesterday, without prompting, asking if I could put together some better speakers for her, as she can no longer stand the sound of her stereo.  Actually, her speakers are ok; it's her electronics---amplifying, among other things, mains grunge---that are the source of her bother.

Tom

[Occam]

Hey Tom,

I thought I'd read on that other place that you're balancing on the end of your chain.... Along those lines, a fellow NYRaver just bought, at my suggestion, 2 Signal DU-7.5 for $61 off fleabay. Yes, the UPS cost for delivery was substantially more. I'd have loved to be there when the delivery guy showed up, 120lbs each.
I agree with Daryl that ideally conditioning does belong in the component itself. I've come pretty close on one source component, but it only draws 5w/8va. Kevin Haskins, who has the DiyCable Circle here, is actually offering interwinding shielded toroids for his UCD400 amps. Bless him.
Simply thowing more capacitance at the problem just narrows and increases the height of the charging pulses, which only exacerbates the problem. Its not the periodicity of the pulses (120hz in N.A.), its the (FFT)spectrum.... Ultimately, I actually see great promise in offline smps; but I'll not hold my breath.

Hereabouts in the Nasty Apple, and even its burbs, everyone I know acknowledges the necessity of good conditioning (save for Vinnie's devoted posse, who'll ultimately transfer their problem to the landfills of China). No doubt we all are suffering from mass hysteria.

Regards,
Paul