[AB]

Could someone give me an idea of the BAT SS "sound"?

VK250, VK500 and the VK600(SE?) have peaked my interest but I have never heard them.

Any comparison to the DNA500 or McIntosh 501 would be helpful.

Are they balanced differential like the DNA500, bridged or otherwise?

Thanks for any insights.

[MarkR7]

Could someone give me an idea of the BAT SS "sound"?

VK250, VK500 and the VK600(SE?) have peaked my interest but I have never heard them.

Any comparison to the DNA500 or McIntosh 501 would be helpful.

Are they balanced differential like the DNA500, bridged or otherwise?

Thanks for any insights.

I have owned the VK-500 w/BP, the VK-600 w/BP (non-SE), and the DNA500.  My fave out of all three is VK-500 w/BP.  I wanted to hear the SE version of the VK-600, but alas, it was way out of my price range so I never got the chance.

I would have kept the VK-500, but I went back to tubes (the Dodd 120s).  The VK-500 did an admirable job of reproducing music faithfully.  It had a very liquid, smooth sound not unlike tubes, with a wonderful midrange and decent soundstage with good imaging.  I would characterize the sound as a bit on the warmer, darker side, but that does not imply a rolled off treble, as detail and cymbals were reproduced very well.  With the BAT-PAK and it's 1100 joules of storage, the VK-500 can handle any speaker effortlessly.  However, going back to tubes gave me an airier presentation with better note decay and better palpability.

The DNA500 was more neutral than anything.  I preferred the warmth, soundstage bloom and bass of the BAT better.  The BAT also has a friendlier input impedance vs. the DNA, so matching with preamps is less of an issue.  The DNA is easier to place due to smaller size and weight.  The BAT runs very HOT, being biased closer to class A, and the DNA runs much, much cooler, so you need to consider that.

In summary, to my ears, the VK-500 w/BP was the most musical and involving SS amp that I have tried in my system compared to the others you have listed (and others too).  At it's current used price of around $2200, it's a bargain and a downright steal for the performance that you will get.

Good luck!

[AB]

Hi Mark, Thanks for the reply.

Did you run the VK500 to your Andra IIs?

Did you run the DNA into them as well?

Any differences there?

You write the BAT had a greater soundstage bloom. Was this depth, width, both?

What preamps did you run through the VK500? I have a Modwright SWL and with the DNA there really is nothing missing. A little more warmth might not be a bad thing, though.

The Andra IIs have really made a huge difference in my system but the one down side is they have started me on one of those upgrade binges. Hopefully I can stall actually buying anything by doing many hours of research first - or is that instead.

Thanks again.

[MarkR7]

Hi Mark, Thanks for the reply.

Did you run the VK500 to your Andra IIs?

Did you run the DNA into them as well?

Any differences there?

You write the BAT had a greater soundstage bloom. Was this depth, width, both?

What preamps did you run through the VK500? I have a Modwright SWL and with the DNA there really is nothing missing. A little more warmth might not be a bad thing, though.

The Andra IIs have really made a huge difference in my system but the one down side is they have started me on one of those upgrade binges. Hopefully I can stall actually buying anything by doing many hours of research first - or is that instead.

Thanks again.

Hey AB,

Funny how your system is mirroring mine!  See my full system here: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1050794580&read&keyw&zzandra.

All the differences I heard and stated were with my Andra IIs and the Modwright preamp in the loop, so it was totally apples to apples.  The DNA-500 was good on the Andras, drove them well, but the BAT VK-500 was great.  The soundstage with the BAT was all the above...slightly wider, higher, deeper, but in terms of importance, the BAT had the better midrange to my ears.  The BAT / Andra combination is highly synergistic, like peanut butter and jelly.  I didn't feel that way with the DNA.  More "magic" was had with the BAT.

Keep in mind that power cords on the amps, tubes prior to the amp, also have a huge effect on the final sonic outcome.

Cheers...

[zybar]

Could someone give me an idea of the BAT SS "sound"?

VK250, VK500 and the VK600(SE?) have peaked my interest but I have never heard them.

Any comparison to the DNA500 or McIntosh 501 would be helpful.

Are they balanced differential like the DNA500, bridged or otherwise?

Thanks for any insights.

I own the VK-600SE and I previously owned the the DNA-500.  Mark pretty much hit the nail on the head when he described the BAT as being more full bodied and warm.  The VK-600SE has more bloom and dimensionality to it and makes the DNA-500 sound somewhat lean and hard by comparison.  I find the soundstage to be better than the DNA-500 both in size and depth.  While the DNA-500 sounded effortless, the VK-600SE oozes and has the music flow in a more organic and complete fashion.

While it has been a couple of years since my last tube amp (Kora Cosmos References - 100 watt class A triode), I do think that the VK-600SE does many of things a good tube amp should do, (3D midrange, airy highs, deep and wide soundstage, heft and body to vocals and instruements, etc...) it also behaves as a very powerful ss amp with excellent bass, leading edge attack, outstanding clarity and detail.

I was and still am, a HUGE fan of the DNA-500, but the VK-600SE really is in a different class in terms of its performance.  The VK-600SE addresses the shortcomings of the DNA-500 and improves on the areas where it is very strong. 

Negatives to the VK-600SE?  Cost, space, and heat.

I haven't heard the McIntosh 501's or the Dodd 120's, so I can't comment on them.

Another possible amp could be the Moscode 401HR that is getting great press and being positively touted by some of our more "critical" AC members (arthurs and tvad).  Both are seasoned audiophiles who have heard a lot of gear and if they are buying it and/or saying very good things I would defintely pay attention.

Hope this helps a bit.

Shoot me a PM if you would like more details on the VK-600SE.

George

[AB]

High praise, indeed. I can hardly imagine much more from an amp than what the DNA500 offers.

The only shortcoming I see is it can be a bit lean but I hesitate to go with a warmer sound. I guess the question then is, how much warmer would the VK500 or 600se be? 10%, 5%, 25% warmer?

Without hearing the things I am left asking silly questions like that one.

The thing about the DNA that has appealed to me has been it's neutrality and transparency. Anything I do up stream has a distinct effect at the speakers. Pre or CDP tweeks stand out, cable changes, etc. are all surprisingly effective. Oh yea, plus it sounds just amazing with the Andras, very real and very dynamic.

Man, I dig those speakers.

At the moment I am auditioning the First Sound Presence Deluxe II. Going back and forth between it and the Modwright has really left me impressed with the Modwright. The FS is back to sounding like it should after re-breaking in but the DNA and the FS seem to have the impedance mismatch thing happening.

The Modwright is so very close to the FS but the FS does highs better, separation and clarity of vocals and instruments in the soundstage are greater and, now that it has settled in, images never waiver. It's a subtle improvement but very nice. The Modwright is so close. When the stars are aligned it is all there but at other times I need to strain to catch the subtle details.

But the FS / DNA500 bass...it's just wrong - unbalanced and sickly. Some notes are too strong and wooly while others disappear completely and, occasionaly, you hear a solid, strong, proper bass note thrown in just to confuse things more. Like I said, wrong and wierd. It sounds as if the amp is running out of juice at the very bottom octave but over driving the next to lowest octave.

With the Modwright there is no issue with the bass at all. It is solid, deep and very balanced.

A new amp may just cure my upgrade-itis. The Modwright with a VK500 or VK600 might be perfect -more air, more detail - all the stuff the FS does well with the DNA but without the alien bass.

Or the FS with a BAT amp might be even better. Hmmm.

So how much warmer are we talking with the BAT amps?

Thanks
AB

[zybar]

Don't confuse "warmth" to mean veiled, lacking in transparency, or anything negative. 

The VK-600SE is more transparent, detailed, and revealing.  It has an extremely open and clear presentation that allows texture and nuances to easily be apparent as part of flow of the music.  The DNA-500 does this to a lesser extent, but it also highlights portions of the music and isn't as whole and organic sounding.  It's tough to describe, but very easy to hear if you could plunk a VK-600SE into your system.

Believe me, my wallet wishes I never heard the VK-600SE, but everytime I sit down and listen to my system my mind says "excellent choice"!   

Not sure if you have anyway to audition one, but if you can I highly suggest you do.

Also, don't forget about the Moscode amp.

George

[AB]

Warmth = Sweetness? Sweetness is a concept I can grasp.

Would you say the VK600SE is sweeter sounding than the DNA500?

VK500 vs the 600SE?

No way to audition the BAT. I will just have to pick yours and Mark's brains to get the necessary info needed to drive that bus off the... um, make a decision.

Thanks again

[zybar]

Warmth = Sweetness? Sweetness is a concept I can grasp.

Would you say the VK600SE is sweeter sounding than the DNA500?

VK500 vs the 600SE?

No way to audition the BAT. I will just have to pick yours and Mark's brains to get the necessary info needed to drive that bus off the... um, make a decision.

Thanks again

Ok, I will say sweeter and more engaging - does that help?   

I haven't heard the VK-500 so I can't say how it compares.

George

[AB]

Sweeter AND more engaging. Gah, another concept to wrap my mind around.

Give me a minute...

Ok. I am imagining I am more engaged, more "in the moment".

Yea, I got it. I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Engaging I can understand. Ok, what else you got?

That BAT's a big chunk of descretionary spendy, man. I gotta know it's what's right. 

[MarkR7]

Warmth = Sweetness? Sweetness is a concept I can grasp.

Would you say the VK600SE is sweeter sounding than the DNA500?

VK500 vs the 600SE?

No way to audition the BAT. I will just have to pick yours and Mark's brains to get the necessary info needed to drive that bus off the... um, make a decision.

Thanks again

Ok, I will say sweeter and more engaging - does that help?   

I haven't heard the VK-500 so I can't say how it compares.

George

I agree with George 100%. 

I prefered the BAT VK-500 over both, the DNA500 and VK-600 (non-SE), because it was "sweeter and more engaging" than the other two, and the fact that it cost half the price of the other two on the used market was icing on the cake.

I wish I could help you on a comparison between the VK-500 and the VK-600SE.  I haven't heard the VK-600SE, but the cheaper VK-600 really underwhelmed in my system.  I was really disappointed.  Reading a review on the SE version though, it should be mega-better than the non-SE version.

If I were you AB, get a used VK-500 (must have the BAT-PAK) for less than $2200, and compare it directly to your DNA500.  If you like the BAT, sell the DNA, or vice versa.  You won't have much trouble selling the VK-500.  Heck, I even know a guy in FL who will be selling his VK-500 if you're interested.  If the VK-500 gives you what you want, then pursue the big $$ VK-600SE.  This will reduce your risk and exposure in case things don't work out.

Just my 2 cents....

[tvad4]

Having heard the DNA-500 in two systems, I find it to be a capable if uninspiring amplifier. If it was a color, it'd be grey...polite, acceptable and inoffensive.

Based on the comments of four or five people who have owned the BAT VK-500 w/BAT PAK, and based on having heard the VK-500 in one system, I would buy the BAT in a heartbeat over the DNA-500 because I simply found it more musically engaging.

Of course, system synergy is everything. Going back through the thread AB, I don't see any mention of your loudspeakers or source. Without the complete picture, any amplifier recommendation is a shot in the dark.

Having owned both the First Sound Presence Deluxe II and Modwright SWL9.0SE, it appears you are on the track of accuracy and neutrality, and the DNA-500 definitely fits into this sonic landscape. Any divergence from this is going to seem extreme upon first listen. Are you prepared for this? Is this what you want?

[AB]

Hi Tvad,
Good point on any changes being extreme in comparison to what is, actually, pretty satisfying sound.
The speakers are Andra IIs. The Source is a modded Denon 3910 with a tube output stage.
I am swapping back and forth between the Modwright and the FS at this point in an attempt to define what exactly the FS does better than the SWL and viceversa.

There is an issue with the bass and the FS with the DNA. Is it an impedance mismatch between these two? I have to assume it is. The FS sounds very, very nice except for the lowest bass. As I described earlier, the lowest octave is very loose and in some cases the notes simply do not appear. The attack is off and the decay is severly truncated. One of the strangest effects is a bass note that has no attack and no decay - it sounds more like a drum than a string bass but as the pitch climbs the notes become more and more "normal".

With the SWL there is none of this.

This whole effort has been a search for a great pre match for the Andra's. The SWL is very nearly perfect but it lacks that last bit of detail and clarity. I like it's dynamics and its overall nature. The FS is very similar - as you mentioned - and it adds exactly what I have been looking for...except for this bass issue.

I have been assured by everyone who owns a FS and from Emmanuel too that normally the FS' bass is solid. It's not then as it should be here in my room. I can only assume it's the FS/DNA combo.  It might not be this at all but I have swapped the DNA out with two other amps (20k and 35k ohm input impedance) and both had better bass. Not perfect bass - neither amp is up to par with the DNA plus those output impedances aren't much higher anyways) - but noticably better.

If the bass sounded right with the FS or if the SWL had that last bit like the FS has, I wouldn't be looking to change anything.

I guess the only way to know is to try another amp in the system. One with substantially higher impedance.

It may be that with  a different amp the SWL will have enough detail and clarity that the FS isn't necessary. I would be just as happy either way. I just want that last bit of purity and detail, that slightly wider and deeper soundstage and that deep black transparent background.

Would the vk500 or vk600SE do this? With either the SWL or the FS?

Thanks for listening and for the help!
AB

[tvad4]

You should be matching your amp to the Andra II speakers, not matching your preamp to them.

The FS in my system had outstanding bass, as did the Modwright. There was little difference between the two. So, you may be correct regarding the impedance mismatch. As great as the Modwright preamp is, I believe the First Sound is a superior preamp and offers more flexibility regarding tube rolling. This, of course, is dependent on your willingness to be without a remote.

Frankly, with your stated quest of the last bit of detail and clarity, you seem to be a perfect candidate for NuForce Ref 9 monoblocks...and I never thought I'd recommend those amps to anyone.

However, I heard the BAT VK-500 in a system with Andra I, and no preamp, and the combination was excellent and extremely musical. I can't say it was the ultimate in detail and clarity, but those attributes aren't necessarily characteristics at the top of the list for overall musicality.

IMO, it's difficult to achieve sweetness, with a desire for ultimate detail and clarity in the same system. The detail and clarity often produce piercing highs, which can work against sweetness.

[zybar]

You should be matching your amp to the Andra II speakers, not matching your preamp to them.

The FS in my system had outstanding bass, as did the Modwright. There was little difference between the two. So, you may be correct regarding the impedance mismatch. As great as the Modwright preamp is, I believe the First Sound is a superior preamp and offers more flexibility regarding tube rolling. This, of course, is dependent on your willingness to be without a remote.

Frankly, with your stated quest of the last bit of detail and clarity, you seem to be a perfect candidate for NuForce Ref 9 monoblocks...and I never thought I'd recommend those amps to anyone.

However, I heard the BAT VK-500 in a system with Andra I, and no preamp, and the combination was excellent and extremely musical. I can't say it was the ultimate in detail and clarity, but those attributes aren't necessarily characteristics at the top of the list for overall musicality.

IMO, it's difficult to achieve sweetness, with a desire for ultimate detail and clarity in the same system. The detail and clarity often produce piercing highs, which can work against sweetness.

Tvad,

I guess AB really upset you if you are suggesting NuForce are the way to go!   

But seriously, I get more detail, texture, etc... from the VK-600SE than I did from the NuForce 9.0, CI Audio D-200, or McCormack DNA-500 while gaining on the "sweetness" factor.  If I didn't there would be no way that the amp would still be here (especially given its substantial price tag).

Before going NuForce, I would absolutely go with the D-200's.  It will give a more open and less lean midrange than the DNA-500 without the grit and glare of the NuForce 9.

George

[MarkR7]

Frankly, with your stated quest of the last bit of detail and clarity, you seem to be a perfect candidate for NuForce Ref 9 monoblocks...and I never thought I'd recommend those amps to anyone.

The Andras drvien by Nuforce 9s??  No freaking way, don't venture there.  I did, and it was a thoroughly disastrous experiment.  It was the worst sound that ever came out of my Andras.

[AB]

Good morning,

I am looking for clarity and detail but with no grain or glare.

The FS can produce some glare on certain CDs - and, at the same time, that woolly alien bass.
So it seems the Andras are able to do glare and grain well - if that's what the amp and pre give them.

I would like to stick with the more traditional designs rather than try any of the NuForce or CI amps.

As for matching amp to speakers, well, the DNA and Modwright sound phenomenal with the Andras so I thought I was all set.

But... it's...just..that..I...want..that...little ...bit...more.  It is soo close to being right, thus my frustration and my audition of the FS.

With the FS, I am there - but for the bass issue. If I were to split hairs, or should I say, split MORE hairs, there could be a bit more smoothness throughout. No syrup, thankyou, just a slight reduction in the occasional stridency. I think sweetness is the word.

So, to nail down the sound I am looking for please imagine a sweeter DNA500 with a high input impedance and enough current (or control) to drive the Andras, an amp that won't color the sound much but allow the pre and source to do their jobs in reproducing the music. If I want coloration I would roll tubes in the pre or the CDP.

I will read up on the Moscode but so far I haven't been able to locate its input impedance numbers. Anyone know here to look? Edit: Nevermind. I found the info 100k.

Zybar and Mark both describe well the nature of the BAT amps and one of these might do it but I am open to more suggestions.

Edit: Are there any reviews of the VK600SE around on the net? VK500 found but nothing on the 600SE.

Ahh, system synergy's a bitch.

Thanks
AB

[tvad4]

One never knows what another person will truly enjoy, and that was the reason for the NuForce suggestion. Want clarity and detail? NuForce. Personally, NuForce creates the farthest thing from real music that I can imagine...

The Moscode 401HR would mate with either the FS or SWL, but because of the fairly high input gain of the 401HR (around 33db as I recall), the output gain of either preamp might need to be reduced a little. I had the output gain reduced on both my SWL9.0SE and on my Lamm LL2 Deluxe to 12db from 18db, and they both worked like charms.

FWIW, I did notice some glare from the FS when I owned it, and it's one reason I sold it.

Since the Moscode is available with a 33 1/3 day home audition, you might consider trying it in your system if only to hear the difference from the DNA-500. Same goes for the CI Audio D200, although I don't believe the D200 are very different in sound from the DNA-500.

There have been some stunning deals recently on used BAT VK500 amplifiers. As it appears you are on a mission for BAT, why not buy a used VK500 and try it out? Don't like it? Re-sell it. Love it and want more? Re-sell it and buy the VK600. You're not going to buy a new amp unheard based on something you read in a discussion forum are you?

[Double Ugly]

One never knows what another person will truly enjoy,...

Or what will work in someone else's system.  I haven't heard the NuForce or BAT amplifiers, and consequently I won't pretend to know the first thing about either until hearing each in my system. 

I know someone who absolutely loves the NuForce 9.0 (doesn't have the .02 yet, much less the SE), and he has *extremely* revealing speakers.  Does he enjoy grain and grit?  Possibly, but I doubt it. 

I've also conversed with someone who recently sold the much-ballyhooed $25K ASR Emitter II Exclusive and replaced it with a BAT VK600SE and a McIntosh C200 preamp he found on Audiogon.  According to him, the BAT/McIntosh combo is "too much superior" to compare to the performance of ASR's top-of-the-line offering, and he paid less than $10k for the pair.  Harry Pearson would probably take umbrage with his assessment, but he couldn't care less what Harry thinks.  Good for him, because as soon as the search for audio nirvana begins to be about what someone else thinks, it's time to find a new hobby.

All of which is to say exactly what?

Unless you've heard it in your system, you don't know what you'll hear from any of these suggestions.  NuForce amps were mentioned more as a joke than a serious suggestion in this thread, and they do fall into the extreme category (it's pure love or pure hate with them...not much between).  Which category anyone here would fall into is subject to debate until they're heard in one's own system. 

On the other hand, the BAT is easily the safer route IMO, albeit a significantly more expensive one, especially if paired with something like the McIntosh C200.  The Moscode may be a safer selection, too, though it's relatively recent arrival and scarce reviews make it slightly bigger leap of faith.  That said, the 33-day MBG and return shipping are sure to ease the sting of disappointment should it fail to impress.

Whether you choose to try the VK500, VK600SE, Moscode or (dare I say it) the NuForce, I honestly wish you the best of luck in your search.  It can be maddening, and I hope you find what you're searching for sooner than later.

-Jim

[tvad4]

One never knows what another person will truly enjoy,...

Or what will work in someone else's system.

Precisely.

Unless you've heard it in your system, you don't know what you'll hear from any of these suggestions.

Right again.

NuForce amps were mentioned more as a joke than a serious suggestion in this thread

They were not mentioned as a joke by me. I meant the recommendation as a serious consideration for an in-home audition based on the characteristics AB was seeking. Without question the NuForce amps delivered detail, clarity and crackingly deep and tight bass in my system when paired with the FS Presence Deluxe II. Other less desireable qualities of the NuForce amps outweighed their benefits in my system, however.

While Mark disliked them with his Andra II, and George liked the D200 amps, only AB will know what amp(s) he will prefer once he hears them in his own home. Therefore, it seems reasonable to keep all options open, and particulary to take advantage of amplifiers that can be auditioned without obligation other than shipping fees.