[earlmarc]

It takes so long to get all the pieces together, and even longer to tweak a system for maximum performance. If I were to do it all over again, were would I start? First, I think I would find the speakers that fits my taste. I then would  trial numerous amplifiers to mate with the speakers until I found the one that works best with the speakers. After that, I would seek a transparent preamplifier that allowed the amplifier to show its merits. Next, would be the digital source. The last components would be cables, conditioners, and tweaks. How would you approach starting over?

[warnerwh]

My first consideration would be the room.  Then speakers would be my next concern. A good source and digital signal processing would be close behind.  Once that's done the preamp in my experience usually makes a more significant difference in sound quality than an amp. I need to qualify that however. After getting ahold of this Van Alstine Fetvalve 550 I've learned that an amp may have a more important role than I'd previously thought.

These days a digital signal processor to help the room acoustics is a necessity to me. Something else that I consider important is to have at least one 20 amp line, preferably two to my room.  This will keep noise to a minimum. A well treated room is unusually quiet and I think it helps the music experience. All the while I'd be dialing in my room and system, changing mainly preamps and amps. I've found that changing position of my different bass traps can have a significant effect on the sound although not as much as speaker/listener position. 

Like you said, tweaking the system takes time. With my present system it took me months and months to get it where I thought it could go.  This is part of the fun. This fun however can grow tiresome and I believe is the reason people sometimes venture into areas that aren't as significant as acoustics and speaker positions. Speaker/listener position alone can take awhile to get just right. The reason in my case is that I can't remember every attribute of different positions I've experiemented with.

All in all the effort has paid off in spades. I love being able to go into my room and have no significant weaknesses or anything that seems to take away from the sound quality. Enjoying music for us with this neurosis at this point is pure heaven. I can listen for hours before I realize how much time has passed.

The bottom line for me as to the question to your answer is: I'd avoid it!  After all the time and effort that went into my present system I don't want to mess with anything in there, period.  I could use some nicer carpeting however.

[ZLS]

Hello,

    Any system would involve a series of compromises.  The compromises should be based IMHO on the type of music you listen to, and the format that your music is in.  Once this is established, the type of speakers that would maximize your enjoyment of the music.  The speakers would determine the amount of power you would need and the type of power (tube, SS, chip amp; whether or not you would need a PreAmp).  The IC's, cables, power cords would be the final step to tie the whole system together.

[JLM]

With a given room in mind I'd start with amp/speakers and finish with cabling/tweaks.

I say "given room" because we seldom have much of a choice in this regard.  Finances and domestic acceptance factors typical dictate room size, design, and how many other functions it will need to support.  Ideally the room would be on the order of 20 ft x 30 ft x 50 ft (bigger the better and of proper proportions).  If limited by 8 ft ceilings the proper proportions would produce a 13 ft x 21 ft room.  Sound isolation would be next on my room priorities followed by electrical isolation and then use of fiberglass ductwork.

Synergy between amp and speakers (both by the numbers and beyond) makes proper pairing of utmost importance.  One listen to active speakers will convince the most die hard audiophile of this (and is one of the reasons behind single driver magic).  Even without going the active route, proper mating is essential.

[Frihed91]

I wanto to make two points: 

First about the room: I think, the room is the easiest thing to take care of in the short-run.  Take the room out of the sound equation by aditioning prospective components in the near field.  In the long-run, if you do have a room from hell, it can become very expensive to treat it for "normal" listening.

Second about cables:  I think, cables and power "treatment" can make a substantial difference, much larger than, for example, the choice of a source (if you stick with 24/192 upsampling Dacs, the sound differences can be relatively small in many cases). 

Someone said that system matching was about compromises, but  I think luck plays a huge role, because none of us have the money, leasure time,  or access to equipment to isolate all of the partial effects and interactions that different system components have on the final sound.  So, sometimes we get lucky and just stumble upon a really good cable - speaker match, etc. 

[john1970]

earlmarc,

I have read your original posting and your order is very reasonable.  As you suggests I would always start with the speakers and amplifier (making sure that the amp does not clip in the room at your listening levels).  Next would be room treatments and EQ.  Lastly, as you indicate, would be cables and tweeks!

Sounds like a formula for success,

John

[Wayner]

earlmarc,

Another consideration for starting your system over, would be to establish a budjet. Most of us can't really deal with the room size or things of that nature (unless money is no object), so write down the things you think are important as in a priority and allocate funds to each component. For example, If you only have $5,000 dollars to work with, then $4,000 dollar speakers aren't going to cut the mustard. I think budgeting yourself keeps the frills away and forces you to really examine what you are about to purchase. Is the component something that you really want. Does it satisfy all of your needs, do you like the sound of it and so on. Expensive inter-connects and frills like that bring little impact to well designed components, IMO, so find an efficient pair of speakers that matches your room. The efficiency and impedance of the speakers as well as how loud and clean you like to listen to your music will determine how much power you will need. You should buy speaker/amp/preamp together as this is a marriage that has a small window for mix and match.

Have Fun!

W

[earlmarc]

I have built an excellent sound system that I would consider budget oriented. SAS 10A, Odyssey Khartago Mono Extremes, Magnepan MG1.6QR speakers, SilverFi and Black Sand Cables, and TRL Sony DVP-NS900v SACD player. I have listened to many other systems that were much more expensive than mine and walked away preferring my system. And for those who have heard my system said they were envious that such a budget oriented system sounded so good. I'm not bragging, but it would be though for me to better this system at anywhere near the price I paid for it. I enjoy the challenge of building another system. I think I will keep this one, its special. As for budget, the only things I see myself spending anymore money for would be the SAS 11A ($1000 + 10A), Battery Supply for TRL 900v, ($750), no more than $3000 for new speakers, and I'm undecided about amplifier.

[JLM]

I was in your place a couple of years ago when we decided to build a new house and I made it a priority to have my own room, so it followed that it would also have a new system.  My slate was "blanker" than yours.  I researched seemingly everything, especially speakers.  Within months of moving in I endded up changing sources (due to advancements in technology) and amps (figured I'd need more power and did), but now feel very satisfied.  Note that for about half the price of your speaker budget I commissioned custom speakers to be designed and built!     These are my babies.   

Having your own room is huge.  Even if it's far less than ideal you can listen when you want and keep others out of your stuff.

[JohnR]

I'd start with the amp. IME that's the hardest part to get right...

Then a good passive preamp. Then source, then speakers.

Any half decent speaker will sound good with quality electronics. But a great speaker with half-way electronics... yecchh

My 2c anyway

[zybar]

I'd start with the amp. IME that's the hardest part to get right...

Then a good passive preamp. Then source, then speakers.

Any half decent speaker will sound good with quality electronics. But a great speaker with half-way electronics... yecchh

My 2c anyway

John,

How do you pick an amp if you don't know what the speakers are?

Would you simply get an amp that would be powerful enough to mate with almost all speakers out there?

Not disagreeing with you, just trying to understand where you are coming from.

George

[pingong]

I agree to start with the speakers. Do not forget AC power. Clean power is more important than any thing else. Ping

[Soundbitten]

Speakers ... definitely speakers .   

[TheChairGuy]

I've always followed the British lead on things audio.....source components first.

As I think no matter what you spend on CD won't get you music, so I'd spend the most time mulling over TT/Cartridge and isolation choices.  The rest would fall in line from there based on budget, room size, WAF, etc.

I think half the time we all spent fretting over which amp, preamp, speakers, SS vs. 'Digital' vs. Tube (yadda-yadda) and cables would be eliminated if the source were more musical....vinyl is the best I've heard thus far (I'm not particualrly happy aout it as it's a P-I-A, but it's the standard bearer for overall quality/enjoyment)

[chadh]

I'm not sure I understand what some of the replies really mean.

Suppose you say that you try to get the speakers "right" first.  How do you do this?  Do you buy a set of electronics and shuffle through a whole lot of speakers until you find the pair that sounds best?  And suppose you do this, and finally choose a pair of speakers, then what?  You start changing another component, and the sound changes - are your speakers the "right" ones now?

The same questions apply not matter which component you decide to "get right" first.

Obviously, I'm not saying that anyone is wrong - especially as I have relatively little experience in this whole thing.  It just seems difficult to imagine concentrating on one component and selecting it, believing that the optimization you've done remains valid once you change your other components.

For what it's worth, I've started differently.  After taking essentially random selections of well reviewed components, and after reading lots of stuff on AC, I looked for a sort of audio philosophy that both appealed to me and that worked with some of the components I already had.  Then I looked to change those components that didn't really work with the philosophy - whichever ones I found at good prices, or seemed practical at the time.  Once the system has the right kind of description (I think I still need different speakers), then I'll look to find improvements where I can, after hearing similar systems that improve on the sound I have or after getting some strong recommendations from trusted sources.

I'm pretty certain this approach isn't optimal.  But I think if I tried to find a perfect example of a particular component first, I'd either be looking for it forever or would find myself disappointed after revising other elements of my system.

Chad

[ted_b]

To me and my $.02 it's all about the holy grail....synergy....the ability for things to work together and for features and strengths of each part of the signal path to actually benefit from the piece that goes before it, and after.  It's a simultaneous equation, best case, but to me the two biggest culprits in synergy-making are:
1) the room/speaker interaction
2) the speaker/amp matching.

Simply put, depending on the size, layout and acoustic potential of the room (let alone WAF), you have a certain set of speakers to choose from, given your ears and likes/dislikes.  Start there.  Then, and only then can you make an informed amp decision.  Why?  Cuz if the three sets of speakers that are on your short list are all 83 db efficient you can rule out most tubes, all SET amps and most low power ss's.  You need brute force, with a touch of kindness.  And that's only the ones you can't use!!  Even knowing that you'll need power, some amps just don't like some speakers, regardless of impedance matching or any other Julian Hirsch-like math you want to do .  We read about it in these forums every day.  To me it's the most mysterious and black art portion of the search (and not necessarily the most fun)...it's like when I walk my dogs down the street; they yelp and whine for the weirdest pals across the street, and growl and go spaz for what look to be kindred spirits.

These are my $.02.  YMMV.  But they've not gone wrong for me so far.  To me the final synergy ingredient is the preamp/source match, and those are usually done to taste.  Digital sources can be fun to evaluate, but the signal path choices (hard disk, universal player, cd only, cd-r reripped with magic, media servers, wireless options, Squuezebox vs Roku vs Olive vs iMod) change every day.  The only real stalwart and consistent choice in sources: a damn good table with a proven arm/cartridge match. 

All in all, it's a journey that has no end, but has wonderful offroads and scenic overlooks.  I just left one and decided to travel on to find a better view.  Wish me luck.  I hope to find new persectives, and maybe make new friends.

[PhilNYC]

Suppose you say that you try to get the speakers "right" first.  How do you do this?  Do you buy a set of electronics and shuffle through a whole lot of speakers until you find the pair that sounds best?  And suppose you do this, and finally choose a pair of speakers, then what?  You start changing another component, and the sound changes - are your speakers the "right" ones now?

I think "getting the speakers right" gives you a bunch of things to think about:

Speakers need to be appropriate for your listening room.  Will the speakers overwhelm/underwhelm the room's size?  Are you constrained at where you can place the speakers?  Are you expecting "full-range" to be 20hz-20khz?  Or is 40hz-20khz good enough based on your taste in music and sound?  Do you like to play things loud?  Or will volumes be relatively low?  How important are the aesthetics of the speakers be to you?

Once you figure out the answer to all of these questions, you can probably identify some characteristics of the speakers that will make your short list:  Monitor vs. floorstander.  Single-driver vs. two-way vs. multi-way.  High-efficiency vs. power-hungry.  Rear-ported vs. front-ported vs. sealed cabinet.  Etc. etc.

There are IMHO more things that constrain what kind of speakers you will finally want to get than there are other components.  Amps are next, with the wide variety of alternatives you can go with (solid state vs. tube vs. all the other varieties) which all have different types of characteristics.  As you move further upstream, the differences and variety of vastly different designs gets less and less...

[JLM]

IMO speakers have the "toughest" job to do as the only transducers (something that changes energy from one form to another) and must do it into a variety of unknown room settings.  So thats why I think it makes sense to start there first. 

Regarding synergy.  Most any good preamp/source will not have synergy issues.  Yes they have individual strengths and weaknesses, but those attributes should stand on their own merits and work with any amp/speaker combo.

I heard a demostration years ago where a $4,000 amp was paired with $10 car speakers in extremely cheap boxes.  The sound was remarkably decent, but obviously not the intelligent way to balance your system budget.

[macrojack]

I believe this process is not about choosing components so much as eliminating them. You have to move yourself through the funnel. Several people above have suggested identifying parameters at the start. That's wise. Your room should limit your options to some extent as will your budget. You've already started this process without even thinking about it by deciding not to consider speakers over $100,000 or was it $1000. Whatever it is, the room limits your speaker options and your speakers limit your amplifier options and your budget limits all your options. So, to start over, I guess you need to examine what the limiting parameters are on one end and what your personal requirements are on the other and use a process of elimination as you move those two boundaries toward each other. The myriad of available products is just too vast to simply choose something without narrowing the field condiderably at the outset.
Something about the way you posed this question led me to think it was hypothetical. Are you indeed shopping?

[woodsyi]

I agree it is a process of elimination. 

First to me is the size of the room.  Big floorstanders just won't do in a tiny room.  Small monitors won't fill a big room.  Stats need space.  so on and so on.

Next comes the amp/speaker combination.  I don't see how these can be considered independently.  I mean a big Halcro amp on a horn or a 300B set on a 3 way floorstander with 85 dB sensitivity just won't do.  Even if the power requirement matches, there are synergy issues with impedance, damping factor etc. 

Next would be pre/pro and source. 

The last to be factored would be cable and power conditioning.   Power conditioning is not the least important thing -- it's just that you need all the other in place before considering what conditioning works best for you system.

Of cource there is one other thing to consider when all these steps of elimination happens:  your budget.  You have to consider any great gear you can't afford is a lousy performer in your room.