[Toka]

Hello again everybody...I was curious for listener impressions on the latest VMPS offerings (specifically the RM40, but any will do). I figured everyone on this forum has good taste so why not ask the experts?  Of course, I've already browsed the VMPS forum on this board but such a venue won't necessarily give the most accurate impressions. I would like to compare them to fully modded/updated Polk SDA SRS 1.2TL speakers (my current 'grail' speaker)...although I suspect the VMPS will kill them in the mids and highs. Plus trying to imagine having the money (and space) for such a test makes my head hurt.

[john1970]

Toka,

I listened to many speakers before purchasing my RM40s including Martin Logan (Ascent and Prodigy), Wilson Watts, Revel, Gallo Reference 3, various B&Ws.  To my ears the VMPS had the best overall sound (mid-range resolution and detail, and deep bass) for <$10K.  However, I did not audition every speaker possible. 

Other speakers that also get good reviews on this forum are line arrays from Selah Audio and Salk Sound HT3s.  I have not heard either of these speakers.

My suggestion is to take your time and buy the speaker that sounds best to you given your budget.  Regardless of what others say and think, it is you who will be listening to the speaker for years to come.

Good luck,

John

P.S. If you live the the northeast PM me to arrange a RM40 demo.

[John Casler]

I can't answer how the RM40 might stack up against the Polks, but if memory serves me correctly Tyson (who I haven't seen much of lately) had RM40s and Van Alstine, and I beleive Warner also had (or has) some of Frank's toys in his rig.

[avahifi]

I wish I could help answer the question as to how AVA electronics and VMPS speakers work together, but unfortunately we never got a change to hear the speakers, probably annoying some people by deciding to keep the Salk Sound Veracity HT3s before other demos came through.  But the HT3s were VERY compelling and I use them every day here with no regrets on my choice at all.

I still would like to evaluate a demo set of both the VMPS and Timepeace speakers, but I will be pleasantly surprised if that happens.

Regarding Polk Audio speakers, I have not heard them in too long to really comment fairly, but as I remember they were in the upper end of consumer audio class products, not in the rarefied range of awesome speakers as the HT3s are.

Frank Van Alstine

[Toka]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll take a look at the Salks as well. I'm looking for something that will 'play it all' (rock, jazz, classical, metal) and not sound out of place with any of them. I liked Martin Logans for some of that range but found they had no 'balls', for lack of a better term. The windows need to rattle, but not at the expense of detail (think of the old Maxell ads with the hair blowing back). I'm also a fan of a huge/deep soundstage...something those Polks with the crosstalk cancellation have in spades (full 180 degree plane/3D from floor to ceiling). Plus they can make lousy recordings sound...less bad (I work in the music industry and have more albums/CDs/demos than I know what to do with). When I say 'play it all', I ain't jokin'. 


Anyway, I'm still in the early stages, so I'll hang up and listen.   

[woodsyi]

Toka,

Where do you live?  Try to audition the speakers.  Most ACers are cool with you coming over to listen.  Good luck.

[Toka]

I'm in the Philly 'burbs...would be interested in checking 'em out if anyone is around that area.

[woodsyi]

If you are willing to drive up to 2 hours, you should be able to audition a bunch of speakers that would work for you from NYC to WDC.  The Ravers seem to have a meet once a month -- I am jealous.  You are welcome to listen to mine if you come to DC.  In fact, I have one gentleman coming over Aug. 12 to check out the subs. 

[Toka]

Sounds good! Once I get closer to 'buy time' I'll be more than willing to take a little trip. I would do it now but I'll just end up changing my mind 3,000 times in the interim. 

[Wally King]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll take a look at the Salks as well. I'm looking for something that will 'play it all' (rock, jazz, classical, metal) and not sound out of place with any of them. I liked Martin Logans for some of that range but found they had no 'balls', for lack of a better term. The windows need to rattle, but not at the expense of detail (think of the old Maxell ads with the hair blowing back). I'm also a fan of a huge/deep soundstage...something those Polks with the crosstalk cancellation have in spades (full 180 degree plane/3D from floor to ceiling). Plus they can make lousy recordings sound...less bad (I work in the music industry and have more albums/CDs/demos than I know what to do with). When I say 'play it all', I ain't jokin'. 


Anyway, I'm still in the early stages, so I'll hang up and listen.   

Well, based on what you say you're looking for, the Salk HT-3s would certainly fit the bill. They sound wonderful on everything - I listen to classical from large orchestral pieces to chamber music; jazz from piano trios to large ensembles; from avant garde guitar pyrotechnics to bluegrass - the Salks give it all back in glorious sound.  The Salks most definitely are not one of those speakers that's "good for rock" or "good for female vocals," etc.  They're just plain good. Actually, a lot better than good.

And they match up quite nicely with an AVA 550.

[avahifi]

I would rather that comments on the virtures of different brands of speakers be done elsewhere than here.  I like my HT3s, I have not heard many of the others mentioned here, thus I can have no comments on them at all.  I really would prefer no comments about any quality speaker brand be expressed here that I have not heard myself.  Take that to the general circles.

Of course opinions as to how well (or not well) our electronics work with some given speaker brand are indeed suitable here.

But if you are simply aware of a speaker brand that is really good and really good value, that does not involve its interface with AVA equipment, please send me a PM and I will look into it.

Thank you

Frank Van Alstine

[Dr. Krull]

I really would prefer no comments about any quality speaker brand be expressed here that I have not heard myself.

Hi Frank!

Would you mind listing all the speakers you have or have not heard?  I'd hate to mention one of them not on your list only to have my post deleted.

-Krull

[avahifi]

Since it would be rather impossible for me to list all the speakers I have not heard, I suggest you simply PM me with any specific recommendations, I certainly will look at them seriously.

Essentially the AVA circle is not the appropriate place for recommending components other then comments as to how they interface with AVA equipment.  I thought that should be rather obvious without me saying this.

I might as well point out one issue I have with "open air" speakers in general.  My concern is that our listening room is not part of the original recorded environment - - - all reflections in the listening room are not part of the performance and could simply be called distortion.  Thus I suggest a good goal is to make the listening room go away  - - - make it as dead and non-reflective as possible.  I am suspicious of speakers designed to produce a lot of sonic energy from the back side - -  aimed at the walls.  This makes the task of killing that back wave reflected sound a lot harder. It seems to me that killing the back wave in the speaker box itself should make the task of eliminating the listening room from the performance easier.  Of course all things are not equal, but the acoustic energy coming off of the walls is not what I want to hear, unless Dr. Bose was correct after all. 

Frank Van Alstine

Frank

[Dr. Krull]

I might as well point out one issue I have with "open air" speakers in general.  My concern is that our listening room is not part of the original recorded environment - - - all reflections in the listening room are not part of the performance and could simply be called distortion.  Thus I suggest a good goal is to make the listening room go away  - - - make it as dead and non-reflective as possible.  I am suspicious of speakers designed to produce a lot of sonic energy from the back side - -  aimed at the walls.  This makes the task of killing that back wave reflected sound a lot harder. It seems to me that killing the back wave in the speaker box itself should make the task of eliminating the listening room from the performance easier.  Of course all things are not equal, but the acoustic energy coming off of the walls is not what I want to hear, unless Dr. Bose was correct after all. 

Frank Van Alstine

Frank

Hi Frank!

I think comparing the likes of a Bose speaker to an Orion simply shows a lack of understanding about acoustics and the design goals of the Orion.  If you aren't familiar with Mr. Linkwitz' work and are interested in possibly enlightening yourself I suggest you read some of his work that he has published on his site.

It may seem counterintuitive but the dipole design of the Orion actually _reduces_ room interaction and greatly reduces the need to make your listening room resemble an anechoic chamber.  This is one of the primary design goals of the speaker.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

-Krull

[warnerwh]

I'm on my third pair of Vmps speakers since 1996.  The pair I have now, RM 40's, are a truly outstanding speaker, especially for the money. After 35 years in this hobby they are of the very best speakers I've heard period.

These speakers are so accurate you must hear a properly set up pair to understand what I'm saying. Too many people say their speakers are accurate but the speed of push pull planars and a ribbon tweeter properly implemented pretty much beat any cones I've personally heard, although I'd bet there's some that are pretty amazing. The reason I bring up the accuracy is because it makes set up more difficult than usual but Vmps gives you alot of room for adjustment.

As Frank stated your room acoustics are not part of the original recording.  With any speaker proper speaker/listener position must be experimented with. Fortunately this is free but extremely important. Secondly a good acoustical environment will allow a high end system to sound as good as it's capable of. Without a good acoustical environment it's not fair to judge any speaker or component for that matter due to peaks and dips that average plus or minus 15db in the average room. Imagine having an equalizer with the sliders randomly boosted and cut to their max settings all the way across the front panel. The average analog equalizer having only plus or minus 10-12 db can't compete with what a room does to your sound. I believe I read than Ethan Winer of Realtraps has measured plus or minus 30db!

The most important part of what I have to say though is that using the AVA 550 amp with the Vmps speakers has been a substantial complement to the sound. I don't know what Frank did but this amp is a standout and I've owned alot of various amps. Frank can explain why but the tonal accuracy and cleanliness of the sound of this amp is honestly amazing. A truly remarkable achievement I can assure you. I'd be willing to challenge any other amp made in my system. 

Two other people who heard this exact same amp in another system described it as extremely clean. I purchased this amp from one of them when he needed money. What  this means is hard to describe. There's zero digititus or noise. The tonal characteristics on my extremely honest Vmps RM 40's is without equal. Everybody's heard sounds that sound close to real. I hear alot of sounds that is startling real continuously. It's like the voice or instrument is right there in the room and it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. This quality I know is mainly the AVA amp and the Vmps speakers in a good acoustical environment.

After four decades of practice and an honesty second to none I'd always felt I should try one of Frank's amps. A very pleasant surprise and experience it's been.   With the Vmps speakers it's a match made in heaven in my opinion.  With the amp you get honesty and integrity.  With decades of manufacture reliability has to also be excellent.  I couldn't recommend highly enough one of these amps.

[modular747]

IIt may seem counterintuitive but the dipole design of the Orion actually _reduces_ room interaction and greatly reduces the need to make your listening room resemble an anechoic chamber.  This is one of the primary design goals of the speaker.

-Krull

Actually, this is not completely accurate.  Dipoles reduce reflections and interactions with the side walls, but increase rear wall reflection - the acoustic power output is equal from the front and the rear of the speaker.  These rear reflections may increase a sense of "space" or smear the sound, depending on various factors such as distance of the speakers from the rear wall, listening position, size of room, reflectivity of rear wall, etc.  Some dipole manufacturers, such as the very large, expensive Sound Lab full range electrostatics recommend putting sound dampening material on the wall behind their speakers to reduce this effect. (They prefer the "live end - dead end" room treatment approach, with the reflective end behind the listener.)  The physics and acoustics of dipole speakers have been well elucidated for a long time - long, long before the Orion was developed.

[Dr. Krull]

Actually, this is not completely accurate.  Dipoles reduce reflections and interactions with the side walls, but increase rear wall reflection - the acoustic power output is equal from the front and the rear of the speaker.  These rear reflections may increase a sense of "space" or smear the sound, depending on various factors such as distance of the speakers from the rear wall, listening position, size of room, reflectivity of rear wall, etc.  Some dipole manufacturers, such as the very large, expensive Sound Lab full range electrostatics recommend putting sound dampening material on the wall behind their speakers to reduce this effect. (They prefer the "live end - dead end" room treatment approach, with the reflective end behind the listener.)  The physics and acoustics of dipole speakers have been well elucidated for a long time - long, long before the Orion was developed.

Hi Modular747!

I provided the link to SL's site so that I wouldn't have to attempt to condense his many megabytes of information into two or three sentences.  If you don't mind me providing some clarifications to your reply... 

The rear reflections that you mention are indeed higher in level from a dipole.  Here's the key - the arrival of reflected sound off the rear wall is delayed enough that the ear doesn't interpret it as "smearing" of the original signal.  To further minimize the effects of "smearing" the Orion operates as a dipole only up to 1,500Hz.  What is quite significant about the Orion’s radiation pattern is that the direct sound that the ear hears is nearly 7db higher relative to secondary reflections.  Also, SL designed the Orion to operate in a "normal" domestic environment with an  RT60 of 400 ms to 700 ms.  This is a significantly higher number than you'd find in most "audiophile treated" rooms.   He specifically recommends to not damp the rear wall. 

While the concept of dipole speakers isn't exactly new, I think you will find that SL has done some rather leading edge research in recent years on moving coil dipoles, room interaction and he's generally raised the bar for what’s possible from home audio playback. 

In any event, I will respect Frank's request and not continue discussing loudspeakers he's not heard in his forum.  I'd be happy to continue this discussion offline or in another forum.

-Krull

[avahifi]

I certainly have no objection to a rational discussion of loudspeaker and acoustic technology here, Dr. Krull, as has been expressed in the past few messages. I would like this circle to be a real learning center and I appreciate your comments and links.  I will investigate.  I wonder of Orion has any demos?

Frank Van Alstine

[warnerwh]

Although I certainly appreciate that someone could design a speaker that would work in the typical listening room I'm somewhat skeptical of the claim. I believe Roy Allison did this a couple of decades ago to some degree. If you haven't measured the amplitude response of your room you should do so. All you need is a disc like Rives sell for 20 bucks and a Radio Shack spl meter. Btw someone bought the rights to this db meter and has improved it.

I've measured my present room several times due to changes and the room in my last house. Even though my room is LEDE with bass traps in every corner I still have a plus or minus 10db variation.  The fact these peaks and dips are wherever they happen to fall does not set well with me. This is because for little money one can purchase a Behringer DEQ 2496 and do alot to adjust these peaks and dips out of the equation as well as adjust the tonal characteristics to their taste.  I personally wouldn't live without dsp anymore. It's too inexpensive for the amount of good it's capable of. 

Another thing to remember is that all speakers will react differently in different rooms with different listener/speaker positions.  It's just physics. Whether or not you like what you get depends on alot of luck and compromise imo.

I will read about the Linkwitz speaker theory. Thank you.

[John Casler]

While there are many types of speaker design and engineering, one cannot change physics.

I have heard the ORION's and certainly enjoy their sonic qualities.

That said, I also have alot of respect of SL's work and theory.

But, as brilliant as he is, and as good as they sound, the concept of a "reflected" sonic contributing to, or helping recreate accuracy is not something I believe in.

The design can certainly create a possibly more favorable speaker efficiency or accuracy, but if a wave is launched anti-phase, encounters a reflective boundary, and can be perceived by the listener in the listening position, then it is "distortion" to the original signal, since it cannot be time domain relevant, and accurate sound reproduction demands phase coherency.

This is not a slam, nor even a complaint, but simply an observation.  It is noted that similar "negatives" and compromises, must be evaluated in "all" designs, and added or subtracted to achieve what the designer feels is the best "sound".

The bane of a speakers ability to reproduce the original event, is the room, the speaker is used in.  While the claims of SL are that he limits the "interaction to the least offensive "frequency range" there still is interaction and distortion that, if eliminated, would reduce that distortion.

The further difficulty designers must deal with is that the frequency range from 20-20 is a "mixed bag".  That is, the interactive gremlins are on a sliding scale of consistency, and might need to be dealt with differently within each room.

Bass to treble, we have large differences in wave lengths and subsequently methods to deal with their negative effects.

I have a tendency to agree with Frank that reducing the room interaction is the single best way to deal with these gremlins, but Stanely's design certainly displays an elegant and "thinking mans" alternative in a home or "normal" environment.