[sabes]

I've just completed a home renovation in which, among other things, i've turned a screened-in porch into a 4-season room, and am looking for suggestions from our knowledgeable members for a new audio setup that would be a big step up from my current kit. the room is 8.5'w x 11' l x 8' h, with windows on one long side and one short side, and french doors (usually open) on the other long side. current setup includes squeezebox2 with full bolder analog mods (incl. silver bybees and ultimate power supply) and thorens td125 mkII/sme 3009 (improved)/shure v15 IV mr as sources, using an audio refinement complete (alpha) integrated, aes/cary ph-1 phono stage and singlepower mpx-3 headphone amp with sennheiser 650's, all playing through tyler acoustics linbrook signature monitors and working through a bpt cpc power unit, a mixture of audience, cardas golden reference and ps audio pc's, and ic's from reality cables and grover huffman.  I should add that i enjoy the sound of this system very much. I listen to a wide variety of music, pretty much everything except rap/hip hop, including lots of jazz, classical, rock and folk/bluegrass. given the room size, this is a near-field listening situation, with modest volume levels (wife and 2 young children!).

The sb2 and mpx3 are staying; everything else is up for grabs. I would expect to buy most of my gear used, and my budget is $8k for speakers, $6k for amp/preamp (a remote would be nice, but not essential), $3k for phono stage, $3k for tt/arm/cart. I'd love to spend less of course, but want as close to reference sound as i can get within these budgetary constraints.

items that have piqued my interest based on reviews and commentary on this august site: channel islands monoblocks, dodd mono's, ava transcendence 8 pre, lamm ll2 pre, dodd battery pre, red wine signature 30, art audio vinyl one or reference phono, well-tempered classic tt/arm/shelter 501 cart, cary six-pacs mono's, sp technologies timepiece 2.1's, eggleston works andra II's.

System synergy is of paramount importance, and i favor what it seems everyone favors: detail, resolution, tonal fidelity, musicality, good portions of prat, no roll-off or sibilance.  All thoughts and suggestions are welcome!

[kfr01]

What don't you like about your current system?

[sabes]

it's hard to say that "i don't like" what i have - in part, this is just my never-ending search for something better, which may or may not exist, but i do feel that (i) i'd like to get more tubiness without sacrificing detail and resolution - you seem to get more of this combination as you move up the audio food chain, (ii) i'd like to get a bit more extension at top and bottom than i do now and (iii) i'd like to extract more information from my lp's.

[Gordy]

I'd suggest keeping everything as it is and address the room itself, then decide where your weakest link or links are... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071360972/sr=1-2/qid=1154471635/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-1206983-9588150?ie=UTF8&s=books

http://www.realtraps.com/articles.htm

Maybe others can suggest further reading...???

[Wayner]

I've seen bigger ice fishing houses. It sounds like a lot of money for too small of a room. I would suggest a nice AVA T8 preamp with your choise of source and a pair of the new Grado Headphones. Forget big speakers. The room is simply too small for any big stuff. some nice bookshelf speakers would be nice, though.

W

[Al Garay]

You seem like a good candidate for Sigfried Linkwitz's Orion, http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
Drive with the recommended ATI amps, not fancy but produce reference sound for many people.

For a more typical dynamic system, popular choice would be AVA Ultra electronics driving Jim Salk's HT3, Selah Audio's RC5 (might be too big) or Phil Bamberg's BESL Series 5 MTM with XLS subs.

Any of these solutions would yield state-of-the-art results for under your budget.

[sabes]

whoops. guess i should proof better 9.5 wide, 15 long. sorry. a pretty good-sized ice house!

[kfr01]

You seem like a good candidate for Sigfried Linkwitz's Orion, http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
Drive with the recommended ATI amps, not fancy but produce reference sound for many people.

For a more typical dynamic system, popular choice would be AVA Ultra electronics driving Jim Salk's HT3, Selah Audio's RC5 (might be too big) or Phil Bamberg's BESL Series 5 MTM with XLS subs.

Any of these solutions would yield world class results for under your budget.

I disagree.  His room is too small, in my opinion.  Linkwitz states the requirements as:

# Room size: >180 ft2 (>17 m2) area, >8 ft ceiling
# Speaker placement measured from tweeter:
>4 ft from wall behind it, >2 ft from side walls,
speaker separation >8 ft
# Listening distance 8 ft to 18 ft


I like the Salk suggestion.  Then go with a Tact 2.0S preamp to solve some of the problems presented by a small room.  Amp of your choice.  CI Audio hypex-based would be good.

[Al Garay]

Go to the Orion forum (http://orion.quicksytes.com/index.php) and find out from existing owners. Your room will work. I have heard them in Mike Chapin (mac's) room which is also like a bowling alley, narrow and long. Also ask Dennis Murphy who knows the Orions real well.

[sabes]

You seem like a good candidate for Sigfried Linkwitz's Orion, http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
Drive with the recommended ATI amps, not fancy but produce reference sound for many people.

For a more typical dynamic system, popular choice would be AVA Ultra electronics driving Jim Salk's HT3, Selah Audio's RC5 (might be too big) or Phil Bamberg's BESL Series 5 MTM with XLS subs.

Any of these solutions would yield state-of-the-art results for under your budget.

interesting suggestion: i am not familiar with this product but the website is intriguing. i'm a little concerned about the imaging issues suggested in this review, though, indicating a need for more room than i have: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/136472.html

should i be looking toward high-efficiency speakers and set's, e.g., as an alternative?
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0806/high_efficiency.htm

[Bob Reynolds]

My suggestion is similar in approach to the Orion -- active speakers. There are real advantages to having the speaker + amp + xover all under control of the same designer. Active speakers usually fall in the "pro-audio" category, so names like M&K and ATC come to mind. In the consumer world, NHT. My other suggestion is a sat/sub configuration so the bass can be placed independently of the midrange/treble. It's a win/win -- reference quality sound and saving a lot of money. You might want to consider a room correction device as a preamp, too.

Good luck,
Bob

[andyr]

My suggestion is similar in approach to the Orion -- active speakers. There are real advantages to having the speaker + amp + xover all under control of the same designer.

Good luck,
Bob

Hi Bob,

Whilst I am absolutely a fan of active speakers (and Orions), I wonder why you think "There are real advantages to having the speaker + amp + xover all under control of the same designer"??   

In the case of the Orions - yes, the Orion ASP is absolutely an essential part of the Orion and you mess with it at your peril ... but the amp is simply a multi-channel amp which Siegfried came upon, which is not outrageously priced.  AFAIAC, his statement that "there's no point in using any "better" amps" (than the one he recommends) is simply hubris - I suggest what he's really saying is "my speaker is so fantastic it delivers you 10-out-of-10 no matter what amps you power it with"!!  And, much as I respect the man's achievements, that is plain crap.

If you go read the "Aspen Amplifiers" Forum on AudioCircle - specifically the "SL Orion XO and Power Supply Mods, & multi-amping " thread - you will a) find several posts by people who have a) tried AKSA amps vs. others and noticed a (beneficial) improvement, b) tried different versions of AKSA amps and reported significant differences and c) even substituted a different Power Supply and got improvements, compared to SL's standard PS.

So, AFAIAC, the amps - and the PS - certainly do not "have to be under the control of the same designer"!   

Regards,

Andy

[avahifi]

You need really heavy sound absorbing drapes on all the windows, thick carpet, and acoustical tile or sonex on the ceiling as starters.  Kill all the early reflections as best as possible.  You are not going to support good deep bass performance in a room this size, so don't try.  A set of Salk Sound QW speakers might work very well for you.

Frank Van Alstine

[Bob Reynolds]

My suggestion is similar in approach to the Orion -- active speakers. There are real advantages to having the speaker + amp + xover all under control of the same designer.

Good luck,
Bob

Hi Bob,

Whilst I am absolutely a fan of active speakers (and Orions), I wonder why you think "There are real advantages to having the speaker + amp + xover all under control of the same designer"??   

The real advantages are that the designer is no longer bound to making decisions based on worst case scenarios. It's fundamental in design -- general versus specific. In an active speaker the designer can design the amps exactly for the drivers in that speaker. My understanding is that stability is a troubling issue in designing a general purpose amp. Some designs use an inductor in series with the output post to help stabilize the amp into capacitive loads. Well, how do you size that inductor? For general purpose use, you have to size it for the worst case. Thus, the damping factor decreases as frequency increases. I believe the same applies to designing the active xover. Since the designer designed the amps, the xover can be designed for those amps specifically.

In the case of the Orions - yes, the Orion ASP is absolutely an essential part of the Orion and you mess with it at your peril ... but the amp is simply a multi-channel amp which Siegfried came upon, which is not outrageously priced.  AFAIAC, his statement that "there's no point in using any "better" amps" (than the one he recommends) is simply hubris - I suggest what he's really saying is "my speaker is so fantastic it delivers you 10-out-of-10 no matter what amps you power it with"!!  And, much as I respect the man's achievements, that is plain crap.

I don't know whether the ASP is designed specifically for the ATI amp or not. It would make sense that it is. I don't think you could be more wrong about your assumption what SL is really saying regarding his speaker and the ATI amp. I prefer to think that SL is an engineer and as such realizes that spending more money does not reap any benefit. My understanding, from what I've read about him, is that he is firmly grounded in the objective camp regarding electronics. Until someone can prove in level matched blind testing that another amp with similiar characteristics can be identified, why spend the dollars. I'm pretty sure he does not have the "audiophile" mentality - that by spending more money you get a better "sounding" amp.

If you go read the "Aspen Amplifiers" Forum on AudioCircle - specifically the "SL Orion XO and Power Supply Mods, & multi-amping " thread - you will a) find several posts by people who have a) tried AKSA amps vs. others and noticed a (beneficial) improvement, b) tried different versions of AKSA amps and reported significant differences and c) even substituted a different Power Supply and got improvements, compared to SL's standard PS.

I'm sure what you're saying is correct and I'm sure everyone of those folks believes what they wrote. I'm just as sure that none of them have done a level matched (to 0.1dB) blind comparision. It's the age old audiophile thing. You can't argue it.

So, AFAIAC, the amps - and the PS - certainly do not "have to be under the control of the same designer"!   

They don't, but you lose the engineering advantages. Your choice.

Best regards,
Bob

[andyr]

.... I'm sure what you're saying is correct and I'm sure everyone of those folks believes what they wrote. I'm just as sure that none of them have done a level matched (to 0.1dB) blind comparision. It's the age old audiophile thing. You can't argue it.

Best regards,
Bob ....

Hi Bob,

We'll have to agree to disagree, then!    It's the hoary old "engineer's vs. the aesthete's" POV!

Regards,

Andy

[avahifi]

Hey, lets make the room not sound like a "box" first before worrying about the equipment to go into the room.  In a hard bright reflective little room you will never have realistically musical sound (unless you use headphones only) no matter how much you spend on the equipment or what brand or type it is (or how much you spend on AC power cords and cables).

Miss the iceberg before putting in a higher quality telegraph machine.

Frank Van Alstine

[sabes]

agree in principle, but realities of WAF and she-devil interior decorator impose severe limitations on this concept! ironically, lots of expensive gear seems to be more acceptable...c'est la guerre!