[woodsyi]

Next-next generation will laugh as bits are fed wirelessly into speakers directly powered by built in digital amps running on recyclable power modules.  Only the shrinking tube heads will still go to an ancient discussion board to talk about the good old days of running different wires, smoking weeds and drinking absinth for enhanced aural pleasures. 

[IronLion]

I guess I would be of the next-gen, as I am a recent 23 year old college grad.  I am also the happy owner of a pair of Chimera Labs Advantage Series II IC's, Virtual Dynamics power cords, and my best purchase yet, a pair of Zu Libtec speaker cables.  The Libtecs are, in my limited experience, awesome.  I don't plan on replacing them, ever, unless I need a longer run of them.  The Chimera cables are great, but I can't hold back my curiosity, I am going to try a pair of Zu Varial's sometime in the near future.  I admit the cable industry can be quite scary, and it really was when I first got into this hobby about a year ago.  I had no idea what was a good cable and what was a bad one, and it was somewhat odd to spend $100 on cables when you know that there are cables out there costing many, many times that.  Luckily, after much research on forums and review sites, I began to get a better grasp of the price/performance slope and just what constitutes a good cable.  Once I became comfortable with just how absurd audio prices can be, and also once I realized that great products are sold at relatively affordable prices, the question of which cable to buy next was simple, as it was determined by my budget, which is in turn determined by my monthly income.  I realize that very good performance can be had with cheaper cables than my Libtecs, but I'm also fortunate enough to be in a position where I can afford them.  A year ago, I would have never considered spending $600+ on a pair of speaker cables, but as I'm sure everyone here knows, this hobby has a bad habit of changing your spending habits.

[Cacophonix]

A lot of doom and gloom in this thread.  It seems like the older generation always lacks faith in the younger one.  With this kind of attitude you guys are right, the high-end audio industry is going to all but disappear.  I think that attitude has a lot to do with the decline we've seen in the industry over the years.  Chances are if a twenty-something walks into a high-end shop they are going to be ignored or discouraged in some way.  I know that this is not the case everywhere, but we've all heard the stories and some of us have experienced it ourselves.  What should really happen is that when a younger person (or any person) walks into a store they should be sat down in front of the best system in the store, handed the remote, and allowed to play their own music. 

Yup ... i totally agree with this one. Thats been my experience the first time i entered a hifi shop.  It was not just a one-off experience. In many other stores, it was the same story. No one asked me anything ... nor did they show any enthusiasm. After that i decided to just chuck these snobbish dealers and rely on internet direct stores for all my audio purchases.

[ZooDog]

Yup ... i totally agree with this one. Thats been my experience the first time i entered a hifi shop.  It was not just a one-off experience. In many other stores, it was the same story. No one asked me anything ... nor did they show any enthusiasm. After that i decided to just chuck these snobbish dealers and rely on internet direct stores for all my audio purchases.

I want to make it clear that I don't think that all hi-fi dealers are this way.  I've also had some good experiences, too.  When I was 22 or 23 (29 now) I went into a very high-end dealer in Mass. to poke around.  The sales guy was happy to hook up and let me listen to Martin Logan Statements for as long as I wanted, even though it was clear that I was not going to be taking a pair home.    Over the next few years I made several trips to this dealer and I was always treated very well.  Eventually, when I had the means, I rewarded them with my (modest) business.

The other experience that stands out in my mind occured around the same time in NYC at Red Rose Music.  The store was actually quite small, and there was a sole demonstration room in the rear divided from the rest of the store with a heavy curtain.  I could hear music playing back there and it appeared that they were demoing a system for someone.  Not wanting to intrude, I looked at a few of the tweaks and cd's that they had on display and turned to walk out of the store.  As I began to open the door, a gentleman who was talking on the phone behind me excused himself and asked "Would you like to hear the Red Rose system?"  I turned and saw that it was Mark Levinson himself.  Of course, I replied "Sure.", and he walked me to the back of the store into the demo room where a salesman and a customer were lisening to the system.  They seemed happy to allow me to sit in on the demo and we listened to a couple of Santana tracks on what was a really nice sounding system.  ML could have easily allowed me to walk out of the store confident that he was not going to lose a sale, but instead made sure that I got a chance to have a listen.  Anyways, thats my brush with hi-fi greatness. 

Of course, I've had plenty of disappointing experiences in hi-fi stores, too.  But there are people in this industry who understand that they need to take advantage of every possible opportunity to "spread the gospel" and not retract to their comfort zone.

The mainstream media does not help our cause either.  On the very rare occasion that you see an article in a major publication like the WSJ or NYT on high-end audio it always focuses on how audiophiles are all wack-jobs who spend $1,000 on power cords and unplug the fridge evertime they listen to their stereo.  I guess no one would want to read about "average" audiophiles, though.

[WEEZ]

This thread was started inviting a discussion about cables..and look what happened.  I'm paraphrasing here, but the statement that a system is only as good as it's cables is hooey. Hell, even Kevin Haskins (who sells cables) so much as said so. (or was that 'tongue-in-cheek', Kevin?  ) 

Anyway, as long as the whole thread is off track anyway, I'd like to re-visit the 'cost' issue. I bought my first real component system when I was a college student working a part time minimum wage job. Back then, the minimum wage was either $1.40 or $1.60 per hour. Don't remember which. If I remember correctly the total cost of my system was around $1000.00. Advent speakers: $232. AR turntable: $128 (with cartridge!). Pioneer receiver: $350. Teac tape deck: $350. Wires: free.

Maybe some smart wizard can calculate inflation for the last 35+ years; but I'll guess it's at least 7-fold- if not more. What would $7000 buy today? A pretty good system I would say. (Even if you include the rip-off prices of wires  ).

It's a matter of priorities. Young people today have car stereos that cost $1000. A cell phone that takes pictures and short movies and costs $600 a year. Add a computer at $500-$700; an iPod at, maybe $300; and of course drink imported beer at 3x the price of domestic; and other assorted 'stuff'.  If they have a part time job..it likely pays more than minimum wage, say...$6.50 or so?

I had the factory FM radio in my 'clunker'. Cell phones weren't invented yet. A computer was for 'grown-ups'. iPods would never have been cool even if they existed. And imported beer made us puke more.

Like I said, priorities. Oh yeah...does your TV system play in 5, 6, or 7..maybe 9 channels? Heaven forbid it would be a 13" Sanyo from K-mart for a hundred bucks.

If high-end sound and music reproduction in the home is to survive...there needs to be some 'marketing' and sales effort to the younger generation. An attempt to pursuade people that their $$'s would be well spent. It isn't a question of 'cost' - so much as a question of 'value'. Hard sell, I admit. Worth an effort, though.

(I'm not picking on the younger gereration. Really I'm not. My kids range in age from 29 down to almost 23. They're really pretty much okay; just slightly misguided....which is partly my fault.  )

WEEZ

[Zero]

It's always about the money.

These days, youth live in a world where that money is directed towards other facets in the electronics world. Computers, something Weez mentioned as once being considered an item for ‘grown up’s has now become a necessity for your average youth. Laptops are an invaluable tool to a college student, and becoming increasingly popular with the high-school crowd as well. Both mediums are not just platforms for entertainment, but serve as a solid foundation to encompass both formal and non formal education alike.

You also have portable music servers (Ipod being a common example), digital cameras, console units (PSP, PS3, XBOX 360, etc) and games. If that’s not enough to empty the wallet of a kid, you then have the typical expenses that come with eating out, buying clothes, clubs, and otherwise the normal costs of having fun. Factor in the cost of car’s, insurance and regular bills and there is not much room left over for much else.

The rolls have changed. Now a good stereo is “grown up stuff”. A kid is much more likely to spend their $1000 + on a wide-screen TV than on a stereo system. Why? First and foremost, it’s the money. Damn near everything is about the money, young or old.. But the other reason is that kids just have no real exposure to anything good, and thusly, have no real interest.

So – what can YOU do? People often show fear that the future of Hi Fi is in peril due to changing times along with a failure within the industry to market towards youth. People as usual, are quick to point fingers yet do little to participate in helping to spread awareness. What you can do is if you are in a position around youth – to expose them to audio, affordable – audio that is. Cut down your desire to impress with this sonic bliss that has taken you many hard-earned years of your life to achieve.. . construct a system that 18 year old Bobby or Melissa could afford and enjoy. It won’t set you back much and the odds are very likely that you will get others to appreciate their music in a way they wouldn’t have been able to before without your help and guidance. Remember people, its YOUR responsibility too.

Today, the market has plenty of fantastic speakers and electronics that offer remarkable performance for such small investment. It’s not that there is a lack of product. Far from it. $500 can get you a pretty kickin’ starter system that will put a smile on any kids face – and potentially keep them happy for quite awhile until they run into more free cash.

The double edged sword of the success with the computer industry comes with the caveat that lots of people spend their time in front of the screen, and at home. That is one main key element needed to enjoy a good stereo system. Sitting down for time on in just listening to music is not appealing to many – but if it can be down while your browsing the web and talking to your friends – priorities just got shifted a bit, wouldn’t you say?

Folks, the cable industry is not scaring off the next generation. Sure, someone my age can point to it and comment on how over-priced things are, but it’s a BS excuse that any person semi versed in audio can over-come. The problem isn’t the over-whelming number of cable manufacturers or even other options, it’s the fact that we cant get any young person interested to begin with. Hell, I think it would be great if we could get enough of a demographic to where they are interested enough just to voice their opinion on the subject. Unfortunately however, that’s not even the case.

There are many opportunities here guys – If this matter is really important to you, than make a contribution. Instead of spending that $500 on a pair of cyro-treated cables, small marble tweaks, a new amplifier stand or whatever the case may be…  challenge yourself to build an entire system that most people could go for and could justify spending and then expose those people to that system. You have the choice to either make a difference for someone(s) or to simply idle in standby mode.

[lonewolfny42]

WEEZ.....Try this......."Maybe some smart wizard can calculate inflation for the last 35+ years".

[silverfi]

very nice discussion. thank you all. it seems "initiation" of the young  to better audio and music listening is a must coupled with good value products. we should work hard and stop complaining as designers and manufacturers to supply music lovers with better valued products. as i said earlier there is no reason to get pessimistic. i believe in the new and young generations.

[JohninCR]

Silverfi,

Yes, you don't have to worry.  Believers come in all ages.

[Kevin Haskins]

This thread was started inviting a discussion about cables..and look what happened.  I'm paraphrasing here, but the statement that a system is only as good as it's cables is hooey. Hell, even Kevin Haskins (who sells cables) so much as said so. (or was that 'tongue-in-cheek', Kevin?  ) 

No... I'm absolutely in agreement.   If you have a good system and just standard Canare proaudio grade cables (still good quality but nobody has sprinkled them with Unicorn piss) and you swap out the entire cable system with $10,000 worth of cables it is unlikely that anyone will notice.   That is unless the $10,000 cables are poorly designed and change the raw frequency response of the system.   As sad as it sounds the $10,000 cables are more likely to be poorly designed than more reasonable priced ones.    

My entire point is that if you spend money to design something it makes the most sense to spend the money on the parts of the system that clearly have the biggest influence.   Nobody will argue that loudspeakers not only sound different, there are large MEASURABLE differences in their performance.   Room treatments not only make the system sound different they make a MEASURABLE difference in the system.    Cables on the otherhand don't change the output to any great degree unless you go out of your way to make them malfunction.   Not only that, none of the research into the audibility or preference for cable brand 'A' vs. cable brand 'B' bears out that there is any type of repeatable or provable performance advantage of using one cable brand vs. another.    

So.. where does that lead us?   I'd say unless you have an unlimited budget spend enough on cables to get well made and engineered cables.   That can be done easily for a couple hundred dollars.   Budget the bulk of your money for the things that are MEASURABLY going to make a difference in the final system performance.   If you want to tweak and play that is fine.   Just understand that the differences you hear can be all in your head.   I've done it to myself.... I've fooled myself into thinking there are differences that later prove not to be real.    You have to understand that as humans.... our perceptions are not always reliable indicators of reality.    That goes for anyone no matter how well they are trained to listen.  

Having said that I'm a hypocrite.   I like to make my cables LOOK good as well as use top quality parts.   I like to do high quality terminations rather than just crimp them together.    In other words I spend more than necessary on stuff for reasons other than sound quality.   It has more to do with pride of craft manship, ownership and the fact I want my system to sound, look and function well.    Doing this is a choice and preference.   I know other people who could care less how their cables look and they install them and forget about them.   Different strokes for different folks.

[Rob Babcock]

I'm actually relieved at the amount of common sense that prevails here.  Not long ago audiophools took it as an article of faith that the Cable Gospel was absolute fact.  I myself could have Bill Gates' money and still not consider for one moment spending several thousand dollars on one IC.  If the 'next gen' understands this years before we did, more power to 'em.

[Frihed91]

I am with Sezi. 

Getting the right cabling for a system is not trivial or easy, but it doesn't have to be that expensive.  I bought a lot of cheap hi volume commercial cables and auditioned quite a few "audiophile" cables before I found ones that actually suited my musical tastes, sound preferences and my system components.  In my system i have 3 sets of ICs and 1 speaker cable.  The total cost of my amplification is around $2000 (integrated + head amp), my sources average $2000, my speakers average (all used) $500, my total IC and speaker cable cost is $1500.  My 4 power cords and power filters cost around another $900. I didn't hear anything better in cables for less, but i heard a lot worse for much much more.

I know it is possible to find $50-$75 ICs and $100-$200 speaker cables that will make your system sound quite good. I could have spent easily $10,000 and gotten a truely attrocious sound.  Finding the best sound for each individual at a lower price is really hard.  But when you hear it, you know it.

[WEEZ]

You are indeed the wizard, Lonewolf! Thanks for the link..

Okay so 5 fold in the last 35 years, in lieu of 7. A pretty good system can be had for $5000 today, though. It wouldn't contain expensive wires at that price...but...

WEEZ 

[ZooDog]

As sad as it sounds the $10,000 cables are more likely to be poorly designed than more reasonable priced ones.

This is one of the reasons that I stay away from boutique cables.  I'm afraid that in order to produce an audible difference they will intentionally screw with the design.  I love Blue Jeans Cable.  Well made non-nonsense cable and great customer service.

Edit: Kevin, I've also ordered cables from you in the past, and they are also a great value. 

[silverfi]

"intentionally screw with the design"

this doesn't sound logical.

saktanber

[Cacophonix]

As sad as it sounds the $10,000 cables are more likely to be poorly designed than more reasonable priced ones.

This is one of the reasons that I stay away from boutique cables.  I'm afraid that in order to produce an audible difference they will intentionally screw with the design.  I love Blue Jeans Cable.  Well made non-nonsense cable and great customer service.

Edit: Kevin, I've also ordered cables from you in the past, and they are also a great value. 

I think i read in stereophile sometime back where the reviewer absolutely loved a particular $$$$ cable, but it
measured very badly. JA was left wondering if the cable was not messing with the sound.

I just ordered abt 40 ft of speaker cables from blue jeans cable ... lets see how much of a difference they make. But i felt good looking at the prices ...  A highly praised cable for under $0.60 a foot?? Thats quite amazing. Makes me wonder how much of a markup there is on cables. On the other hand, i really don't want to know.

[WEEZ]

On the topic of bluejeans cable...I can attest to the workmanship; service; and value offered. I use Canare IC's from them with the Canare RCA's and while the jacks are not 'pretty' like some other more expensive cables; they perform flawlessly...i.e.; they are solid, quiet, and allow all the signal to pass without any audible coloration.

(They replaced my Cardas and Kimber cables, which (while perfectly fine) offered no beneficial audible performance improvement.) The Cardas were slightly better than the Kimber...but it was mighty subtle. The Canare sounded closer to the Cardas (warmer but with excellent resolution). The Kimber sounded 'juiced-up' just a bit. You've got to think about all the 'hype' with wire. While some might claim less skin-effect and/or some other attribute..the cost of these 'improvements' may or may not be audible. And if they are...do they sound right on all program material?

Frihed91: $1500 for cables and $900 for cords and power filters = $2400. Wow.....

WEEZ

[ZooDog]

I think i read in stereophile sometime back where the reviewer absolutely loved a particular $$$$ cable, but it
measured very badly. JA was left wondering if the cable was not messing with the sound.

I just ordered abt 40 ft of speaker cables from blue jeans cable ... lets see how much of a difference they make. But i felt good looking at the prices ...  A highly praised cable for under $0.60 a foot?? Thats quite amazing. Makes me wonder how much of a markup there is on cables. On the other hand, i really don't want to know.

I think you are referring to Michael Fremer's review of the Harmonic Technology Cyberlight interconnects.  Here's what MF wrote for his conclusion to the review:

Having spent several months with the CyberLight analog interconnects (I haven't yet checked out the Digital Datalinks): 1) I would not want to be in the business of making expensive standard cables right now; 2) Harmonic Technology's Light Analog Module Photon Transducer is the most significant single technological breakthrough I have experienced in my career as an audio reviewer. It is immediately superior in every way.

Might measurements show signal degradation? Might someone come up with a way of "proving" that the LAM process induces a serious coloration even as it removes many others caused by conventional signal transmission? Perhaps—and I'm sure every other cable maker will be looking for those proofs.

Me? I'm prepared to eat crow. No matter how I try to deny it, after many months of listening to these cables with a wide range of associated gear, their superiority to anything else out there that I've heard is undeniable. This superiority comes at a fairly stiff price, but if you can afford it, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

And here's what John Atkinson had to say after he measured them:

If this review were of a conventional product, I would dismiss it as being broken. Ultimately, no matter what someone might think of its sound—and Michael Fremer is one the most skilled listeners I know of—I really don't see how the CyberLight P2A and Wave cables can be recommended. I am puzzled that Harmonic Technology, which makes good-sounding, reasonably priced conventional cables, would risk their reputation with something as technically flawed as the CyberLight.

Here's a link to the entire review: http://stereophile.com/cables/805harm/

[nathanm]

Canare plugs are pretty!  It's just those stock plastic boots that are chintzy looking, (though perfectly functional I am sure). With just shrink tube or plain they look fine.  And don't be discouraged by low prices, you can still end up spending a lot with the Canare cables and plugs.  For instance, just get yourself the crimp tool and dies plus the wire stripper for it.  That'll set ya back! I'd suggest that there are extra audiophile merit badges to be earned if not necessarily for spending thousands on your cables, but rather custom cutting each one to exact length - you know, so it sounds better!   I did that for my surround cabling and felt suitable dork pride.  It beats scrapbooking.

[WEEZ]

yeah the plastic thingy's. 

Anyway, all my jacks are in the back so you don't see the plastic boots unless you crane your neck to look.

Nice wires. Nice price.

WEEZ!